Men On Purpose: An Intrusive Brotherhood & Intentional Masculinity

Speaker A00:00:08

What men's ministry did for me was to say I was on the right road, but I was also kind of like burning a lot of energy instead of casting, like casting my care upon Jesus.And what I found in them was they started to define for me that, like, your identity is not in the stuff that you do or in what people can do for you.It's all about the Savior.It's all about Christ our King.

Speaker B00:00:44

Welcome to the Prodigal Journey, where we celebrate Christ's power through our weakness.And thank you for joining us on this episode.All right, welcome to another episode of the Prodigal Journey.This is your host, Ben, and I'm super excited about this episode today.Good friend of mine.But before we get into introducing the guest, I want to talk about one of our affiliate partners, Upside.Why not make cash back for something that you're already buying?Upside provides cash back to users at many major gas stations.You can get up to 25 cents back per gallon, up to 30% on groceries, and up to 45% back at restaurants, depending on the deals your area.And this is legitimate.My wife and I use it consistently and I'm always cashing out money back into our accounts.So make sure you take advantage of this.And you can help out the podcast by clicking the link below and signing up today.But if you enter the promo code Journey25, that's Journey25.You'll get an additional 25 cents off for your first fill up.So make sure you go to the show notes and click that link and sign up and start getting cash back.Our guest today, he is a devoted Christ follower, a husband, a father, a speaker, a coach, and an Amazon number one best selling authorpreneur.That's a tough word to say.He's also the founding president of Men on Purpose Inc. And his name is John Price III, affectionately known as JP3.So welcome to the podcast.

Speaker A00:02:21

Thank you, sir.

Speaker B00:02:22

Man.Yeah, I appreciate you taking the time to be with us.I always get excited when I talk to you and I always walk away encouraged and also stretched at the same time.You're not afraid to push back and I always appreciate what I gain from our conversations together.So I'm really looking forward to this conversation.It's something I've been thinking about for a while and just noticing a need that needs met for men specifically.And you just seem to be the perfect person for this conversation just because of what you're doing now and the things, the doors God has opened for you in the ministries you're Doing.

Speaker A00:03:00

Wow.

Speaker B00:03:01

So, yeah, I just want to talk through that.And, yeah, I appreciate your time.

Speaker A00:03:05

I'm grateful to be here.Grateful for your time as well, going forward.

Speaker B00:03:08

Yeah.So let's just kind of start from the beginning of your story a little bit.What.What's kind of your background growing up?Did you grow up in a Christian home and kind of how you were introduced to Jesus and were saved?

Speaker A00:03:22

Yeah, so I get a fair amount of mileage out of this one.So, you know, when I'm doing a small group or sermon, usually like to open, saying, you know, West Philadelphia, born and raised on the playground is in fact, where I spent most of my days.So I don't.I don't just look like Will Smith.I share part of his story as well.Yeah.But, yeah, I like to say I grew up in a.In a very heightened, hyper, churched, you know, environment.You know, we went to church eight days a week, as I like to say, tongue in cheek.So the dynamic was that on my mom's side of the family, my mom was the choir director.My grandmother was the organist.I've been a church drummer since I was 8 years old.I have two uncles that both play the piano and sang and another aunt that was in ministry as well on my dad's side.So that was the dynamic there.And my dad grew up with a ton of church hurt.So he grew up in a space where, because of his mom's mental health issues and upbringing, where she kind of bounced around from different worldviews while he was growing up.And he saw her experience a lot of trauma that, in his view, the church did not respond to, particularly for basic needs around the household, and that the church said, well, just pray on it.But no one was mobilizing any resources.No one was suggesting professional help for some of the mental health issues that she had experienced.And all that kind of filtered down to him.And so in his upbringing, you know, the dynamic was on one side of the family, you know, we're going to church eight days a week.On.On the other side, we're, you know, dragging him, kicking and screaming type of thing.Right.

Speaker B00:04:56

Yeah.

Speaker A00:04:57

And so, you know, growing up, for some reason, I always had.I went to a boring, you know, kind of storefront church, 35 members, you know, where everybody know everybody else's business in West Philly.So, you know, when we went, for some reason, there were children.There were people who were my age children, and then much, much older saints and not a lot in between.And what I remember was, for whatever reason, Just the inner competition.I never wanted to go to sleep.I saw the children go to sleep and I saw the old folks just because they were in that space sleeping on sermons and everything.And I just had to stay up at 7, 8, 9 years old was doing that.And so I picked up a lot of the nuance.People kind of said like, I'm an old soul, you've been here before.And so heard the gospel, all of that, but didn't respond to respond to it until age 9.So at 9, kind of heard the same gospel, presented and recognized the sense of conviction I had over my sin and said, oh, this is this for me, this is not good enough that I'm just kind of hearing it and around it and so forth.And from then that was, I thought, you know, this all right, cool.You know, the rapture can happen any day now, we're good.And then the, the whole, that whole dysfunction I talked about between my two parents sort of came to a head because between the ages of 9 and 12, the arguments and the separations got more intense and more frequent until there was an ugly, messy divorce when I was about 12 years old.And so one of the, you know, most two really critical days in my life, one was when I knew it was the end.And this was around a movie, around the time when the movie Waiting to Exhale came out.And I always know it because my mom, my dad had, you know, he was already at the house for, for spell and motivated by watching the movie, she went and like started cutting up his clothes.I was watching this on my way out the door to go to school and I remember just like crying and pouring out my heart to her, like saying, mom, please don't.Like, I had had all of my, you know, hopes that my dad would pass along some of the stuff to me.And we weren't balling as far as like financially so like we didn't have money to throw away or clothes to cut up.And she just kind of like over talked me, like just yelled at.And I just remember being just so broken, walking to school, knowing that this is all happening and kind of going to school and all the other kids seem like they're doing well and happy and everything.And I'm just like crushed.And my dad isn't in the picture, at least not in a meaningful way from the standpoint of what I needed from an emotional and spiritual standpoint.So at 12 years old, so all of this is happening then that was kind of like the beginning of the dark ages for me.So into high school and so forth.I'm making really poor decisions.I'm, you know, letting my friends kind of define my identity as a person.My dad became kind of like the biggest bully, in a way for me because of the church hurt that he grew up with.And he was experiencing some of his ideological changes and shifts as well.I remember him basically cussing me out about my belief system.And so I'm forced to live with you for half the week, and I don't want to be in this house because you're just like everything I would say you.You got a response to.And, you know, he's, you know, yelling at me and.And so on and so on and so forth.And so it was like I wasn't really owning my Christian walk anyway, much less now it's like, you know, what do you want?

Speaker B00:08:19

Yeah.

Speaker A00:08:20

So fast forward to my college experience.Now.I'm a shell of a just broken man.I went to Dre University, you know, again in Philly, and part of that decision to even attend Drexel University, even though I went as an engineering major, I'd always done well in school.Academics was always my thing.But I came dangerously close to failing out because my soul was just bare.I just, bro.I didn't have foundation.I didn't have a plan for going to school, none of that.And so again, with that whole letting my friends define me, letting my.Again, church drummer since I was 8.I became a music major after that.I thought music was my identity.You know, I thought that was, like, just being a musician was the thing.And then eventually I got into a relationship with a young lady that I sort of idolized.I made that, like, the centerpiece to my life.So even though I'm saved, I'm not living any kind of form of discipleship or anything like that.And in my early 20s, that, you know, there was a betrayal.She crushed my heart in a million little pieces.And then finally, it was like the light went on that, you know, now that I'm on my back, face up, I'm like, God, you got me.So from this point on, we going, we're going to do this for real.We're going to live for you.So got plugged into my church.This was a different church at this time.And the game changer for me was getting plugged into God's Mighty Men ministry, which is the name of the men's ministry at Sharon Baptist Church in Philadelphia, where I sort of cut my teeth.And so, like, from that point on, like, men's Ministry has just been like the thing.It filled in all the gaps, all the questions I had about manhood, masculinity, servant leadership.Like all that stuff started to make sense finally and, you know, the rest of CCS history.

Speaker B00:09:58

Yeah, man.So many things you say is just like, I think in my own story, especially when you're talking about church people telling them just to pray, but no action behind it.It's.It almost feels in a way like we're putting all that weight on Jesus and like if something goes wrong, is it Jesus's fault because we were.We didn't pray enough or believe enough.And it's a way for us to excuse action on our part to love people and man, that's tough.

Speaker A00:10:26

Yeah, no doubt.Absolutely.

Speaker B00:10:28

So once you got connected to that men's ministry, what.What did you feel like was some of the challenges for you in the sense that what at that point in time, what did manhood.How was it defined at that point?Yeah, when you had gotten into that men's ministry and was any of that conflicting with now what you're learning from that ministry?

Speaker A00:10:51

Very much so.So like it.So that environment was highly.I like to use the word intrusive.Like I found out for the first time that real ministry is doing life together.Not we show up on Sundays, not I get credit for attendance or playing the drums or whatever.

Speaker B00:11:15

Right.

Speaker A00:11:16

It was like living out the scriptures and you know, the whole.The one another passages that we, you know, see replete throughout the New Testament.That was where that was lived.So I was there every single Thursday.So.So let me, let me give you a little bit more context.I was living out like this was in my mid-20s and I was doing the real like the single life thing where I'm in church because of the brokenness.I was in church no fewer than.Than four days a week.I was serving on seven different.At one point, I served on seven different church ministries at the same time.So it was like I was.I was one of the musicians.Men's ministry I did Sharon shares It was like a giving ministry.I did a street ministry.The athletic.I forget was.It was two more I'm drawing a blank on.And then on top of that, on top of that going to seven at the same time serving then a woman that she has since passed away.But I call her Mom.Her and her husband who ended up marrying us, they did our premarital counseling and pop ended up marrying us.But mom took a liking to me because what I would do is when marriage Ministry.We had their.I think it was monthly meetings or bi weekly meetings.I would sneak into the back and I was.I was like, tiptoeing kind of in and about.Anyone.Anybody see me, they knew I was.Everybody at the church knew me.And so I would kind of sneak it in the back.And knowing that in my heart, like, I wanted to be prepared, but I didn't.I couldn't.Like, I didn't have a spouse to be there.So I'm just, like, taking notes when they're doing the, you know, sharing the lessons and stuff.That was.That was like, how empty and, like, I just needed to be filled.So that was what my single life experience was like.So I'm saying that to say what men's ministry did for me was to say I was on the right road, but I was also kind of like, burning a lot of energy instead of casting, like, casting my care upon Jesus.

Speaker B00:13:05

Yeah.

Speaker A00:13:06

And what I found in them was they started to define for me that, like, your identity is not in the stuff that you do or in what people can do for you.It's all about the Savior.It's all about Christ our King.And I saw that lived out.So now the picture that I had of being spiritual or being a good person or being acceptable and all those types of things growing up, I saw two inflated or warped views of that.So you saw how that was played out in my mom, you know, kind of on that side of the family, everything was very superficial.There wasn't any deep, like, discipleship happening there.We were just churched.Highly church, well, church.Then on this other side, it was, you know, antithetical to gospel.And then it was so much about your intellect and using your intellect as a weapon instead of, like, recognizing this is a gift from God and that's what it's used for.And so suddenly, both those worldviews were obliterated, shattered to pieces.Because I had steady weekly doses of men who are confident in who God is, first of all, and second of who he had made them to be.And I was surrounded with them.We were meeting on a weekly basis, and I started discovering, you know, my spiritual gifts.Then I realized that, you know, my top three, generally speaking, whatever test or variation you take, wisdom, knowledge and pastor, teacher, tend to, you know, be right there at the top.And I didn't know that.So I was doing things like sharing on the confirmation team.I was leading praise and worship for the men's ministry.I was teaching from time to time as well.And so all of that Gave me that safe, you know, familial, biblically centered community in which to, like, cast, like, scales just falling off, you know?So if you have such a commit, like, embrace it.Be in that mix.There is no replacement, I would say, to anybody, no replacement for a dynamic where people are pulling for you and pulling in the same direction.Like, it's worth this weight and gold for you to be around people who.Who are.Not only they.Are they healthy, but they're making you healthy.

Speaker B00:15:13

Yeah.And it's interesting.Two things you said have been on my mind the last couple days.So.First of all, I like that you use the word intrusive.Because one thing I push back a lot on when I.When I talk to other men, it seems to be that there's an epidemic or.I don't know how you want to say it, but there's this struggle for men, whether it's from the culture or the churches, that men aren't relational.Men don't connect, men don't communicate.You and I have been in some, like, recovery programs where we've helped out, and people always say, oh, the women just tend to reach out more in their groups and.But I don't know how much of that is cultural, related to the church and just a misunderstanding that even men are created to be relational and invade each other's lives in that way and push back.I mean, when you look at the example of Jesus and the disciples, like, they were very close.Jesus was very relational with them and people in general.And so it's.I get a lot of pushback on that sometimes because of that.And I'm just like, we can't just keep saying it's a guy thing, you know, because I don't believe that's what we were created for.And I think.I like that you use that word intrusive, because it's really needed.

Speaker A00:16:28

Yeah.Yeah, I would say so.One of the most.I won't say liberating somebody.Not the right word, but, yeah, freeing things for me was learning about the story of John, the disciple John and their relationship.So him being the youngest, ostensibly the youngest out of the group, and him being very affectionate toward Christ.So the Bible refers to him, obviously, as the one that Jesus loved.Not that he didn't love all of them, but just, you know, there was something very unique, you know, and so he is.He is.He.John is described as, like, leaning on Jesus's breast, on his shoulder, you know, and.And two masculine men, where there's nothing else going on.Right.Nothing perverted or anything of that nature, but that they are so close and there's an intimacy there that they.They were safe to do that publicly.Right.And that was just a liberating idea.And.And how that related to me, for example, being in that space where.Where there's like a hundred guys in this room.So back up a second as well.So in Guys Mighty Men, for example, there was the plenary, meaning the full group, when there was like a hundred people in the ministry, but then they broke up into small groups where they did their thing as well.And so regardless of what the group size was in terms of really diving deep into stories like that and how Jesus related to other men and gave them permission to be relational, to be vulnerable, to know that he was safe to be that way around, helped me to be like, oh, like the.The stuff that I'm carrying, the hurt and the baggage and the burden.It's okay.It's okay for me to cry.It's okay for me to, you know, articulate.It's okay.It's okay.That off.Very often, even to this day, like, I still feel like a fish out of water because depending on the room, I have these weird sort of.What do you call it?The word that's coming to mind is bifurcation, but I don't want to use a word that not a lot of people are familiar with, but these dualities.So I have both Ivy League education and community college education.Like, I'm from the streets and I've lived in the suburbs.I've lived like legit.So very, very local, hyper, you know, proud, you know, civic pride about Philly and all of that.And I've also lived overseas.So depending on the room, I might not be black enough.I might not.I might be too black.I might.You get what you get where I'm going.

Speaker B00:18:42

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker A00:18:43

And so all of that if wipes away when you realize your identity as a person, you find in Christ that he defines who you are as a person.And granted, it's always an uphill battle because like you said, from the cultural standpoint, depending on the room that you're in, depending on those folks upbringing and the cultural norms and so forth, what you bring to the table might not be considered socially acceptable, but you realize that they're not the ones that you're out to please.I heard somebody that I'm a huge fan of, Dr. Myron Golden.He said because a part of his platform, he's got a huge online platform, does these YouTube videos and so forth.And a lot of his main idea is preach is teaching the Bible from a.Teaching business from a biblical perspective.And so when he goes, he says, he often says, I teach Bible and then the business people get annoyed and then I teach about business and then the Bible people aren't.So everybody's mad at me.

Speaker B00:19:44

Right, Right.Yeah.

Speaker A00:19:46

And so I'm saying that to say one of his main quotes that I think, game changer for me and for anyone.He says, I'm here, I'm not here to please you, I'm here to please the Lord, But I'm here to serve you.But I'm here to please the Lord.That's the saying, I'm here to serve you, but I'm here to please please the Lord.So don't think that you need to please somebody with, you know, what, what it is that how you're wired, what you need to do.There's a bunch, you know, there's a bunch of data out there as far as, like the four personality types.You know, there's Myers Briggs and there's, you know, the main one, disc.Disc assessment.

Speaker B00:20:21

Okay.

Speaker A00:20:21

So in those, it kind of describes how different people take on their.They, their work style or how they relate to people.How they communicate is all different based on their personality type.And if you are a high.I meaning inspirational, or you, you, you talk a lot, you like to be the center of attention, there's a time and space for that, and that's not for every room.But you just know that like, you know, as a man, I'm still like, it's, it's cool, it's all, it's okay as long as what you're doing is unto the Lord.So I forget if that's where we were going.

Speaker B00:20:54

Yeah, no, for sure.So how do we bridge that cultural gap?Because one thing I've been thinking about too is.So the last probably six to eight months, my wife and I have been looking for a new church and one that we've kind of visited more frequently than the rest it has.So I'm trying to figure out how to phrase this, but basically the last six to eight months because of that, and there's a podcast that I listen to pretty regularly and I have you in my life as well.So a lot of the influences I've had over the last six to eight months where I've experienced, experienced the most growth has been through cultural differences.Okay, right.And ethnicity.And so basically, like, all of that to say most of the growth I've experienced Those last six to eight months has been non white people.

Speaker A00:21:45

Gotcha.

Speaker B00:21:46

And I say that to say I feel like there's a gap because most of my life I've grown up in churches, predominantly white, you know, even like income and all that.Like, there's just a cultural norm to a lot of those churches I've been a part of.Whereas now I'm learning from people who, who have, you know, experienced some oppression in their lives or culturally in different places.And I feel like I don't know how to bridge that gap with people sometimes.And I don't know if you have thoughts on that or.

Speaker A00:22:17

Yeah, I'll say this.I think that difference is good.Yeah.Right.You know, scripture talks about letting all things be being done, you know, decently in order.So it's funny because of how the word diversity, which can be a bit of a lightning rod.

Speaker B00:22:36

Yeah.

Speaker A00:22:36

I acknowledge that.Because depending on the.Again, the room that can be used to like, encompass a whole lot of extra things that are extra biblical.And so we're not going to step outside the bounds of where, you know, God permits us to be as far as, you know, as far as that's concerned.However, difference and having someone in the space from you, particularly when you're talking about like ethnic ethnicity, there's just, there's just a value add of people who are like.And this is why I'm grateful for having travel and obviously to anybody, if you haven't been outside your backyard and in your backyard for, for Ben.Right.For Benjamin Neff.Could be.You know, I, I've only gone to, I only go to churches where there's sort of a comfort level because those people look like me.And some of the, you know, the finance, you know, they're back like that stuff I can all overlay to.Great.It's not bad.But you're only going to get.It's going to cap out.You're only going to grow a certain, you know, certain amount being in that environment for an extended period of time.

Speaker B00:23:36

Yeah.

Speaker A00:23:36

But watch what happens when for six and eight months you get this steady dose of.Now you got some, some JP3 up in there.You got some people that, you know, and so those people have.It's not just the, the that what they're saying is dramatically different.I don't think that that is where the value necessarily comes in.But.And it's interesting just come kind of just us just coming out of Black History Month.February is not that long ago that when you look at the experiences of, you know, Our ancestors, you know, in this country in particular.But, you know, more so historically what the gospel means to us, when what you're talking about is, you know, 1865, the reason why there is even a Juneteenth, right.And the story being that, you know, our enslaved ancestors were like waiting with tiptoe anticipation for January like to hit so that they could break loose.And so the idea of the chariot coming or, you know, Moses, you know, us getting ready to like all that stuff actually means something that is like from almost from an epigenetic standpoint, like down to our bloodstream.That's why our songs sound like the way that they sound.It's not that we're saying different words.Yeah, it just comes out different because our experience has been different.And so you need that to experience that.Like you got just expose yourself to it, just, just because.And so I think that that's a lot of what God had in mind, particularly when you're looking at New Testament, you know, acts and the way that it describes, you know, God's sort of ideal scenario for his church.Like multi ethnic, everyone round together, one tongue, one accord.We're all singing one praise to our God.Then you see that culminate and in the book of Revelation where like the glorious worship kindreds and tongues from all over.Right.Like that's the dynamic.Now you're getting excited because that, I think that that's what God had in mind was that the, the whole unity through diversity that the, the differences are, were never intended to drive us apart.In fact, they were, they were intended to compliment.I am to draw value from you and your life experience that you've had.And I'm sitting here in your house and, and I just came up to you and I was like, yo, I didn't realize back, you know, I've driven past here a thousand times.I didn't realize back in the cut was right.So now I'm getting value from, you know, and.But what unites us is we are both related by the blood of Jesus.

Speaker B00:26:08

That's right.

Speaker A00:26:09

Yeah.

Speaker B00:26:09

That's awesome.And one thing, one thing you said stood out to me is the fact that like you were saying how it's a lot of times just based on comfort level.So it made me think of the fact that even though I might not, it's not intentional, right.Like, I'm not just, I'm not, I'm not just sitting here saying, yeah, I don't really want to go to this church because they're diverse or so it's not intentional in that aspect, but it's also not intentional in the fact that I'm not intentionally saying I need to be a part of something more diverse.Right.In the church we were at, like, we had even heard some of the.One of the pastors get up and admit, like, hey, we're not.We're not diverse enough as a church because we're a bunch of bougie white people.And I'm like, okay, then what are you doing to incorporate that or encourage that?And you know, so it's not intentional, but it's not intentional in seeking it out either.And I think that was a big turning point for me.And it was hard to adjust to because the.The church we've been visiting the last couple months, it's more Pentecostal, and they're very diverse and they're.They're much more laid back.And I'm coming out of a church that was very, like, by the book, things based on, like, perfection.The audio, the music, everything had to.

Speaker A00:27:31

Be smotheringly, theologically tidy.I know exactly what you're saying.

Speaker B00:27:34

I like that phrase.

Speaker A00:27:35

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B00:27:36

So.But I've been a part of those churches for a while.And so to.My wife had an easier time adjusting to that because she comes from a Pentecostal background.But for me, it was like on Sundays when I hear the audio is a little off or, you know, the music is just.That's something in my heart that I have to work through because I've been a part of that perfection for so long.It's like, it's okay, you know, maybe there's things I can help and it might be an opportunity for me to help because of my background with audio and music and stuff.Whereas in the church we were in before, they were so big.Like, they didn't.

Speaker A00:28:13

Eh.

Speaker B00:28:14

Like, if you drop.Drop out, like, nobody's gonna notice you're gone type thing.

Speaker A00:28:17

And.Amen.

Speaker B00:28:18

This is a smaller church.And so.Yeah, I love that you pointed that out, like, it being the level of comfort.And I can attest to that because for me, I've had to get out of my comfort levels for a couple of different things and just adjusting to that difference in those good things.

Speaker A00:28:34

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B00:28:35

So.

Speaker A00:28:36

And that's getting out of your comfort zone as much as nobody likes it, but especially as a leader.And you're a leader, right.You know, you're married.And so the opportunity for you to become as good a leader, a servant leader as you possibly can will hinge largely on the stuff that happens to you in that.Outside of my comfort zone.Zone.Right.That discomfort zone.So it's like.And it's funny because I think I'm preaching my own sermon, which is to say, like, let it work on you.Like, look.Look at the audio being, like, not.What do they do?

Speaker B00:29:09

Right.

Speaker A00:29:09

And let that work on you.

Speaker B00:29:10

Yeah, right.

Speaker A00:29:11

There's.There's a reason that that's accompanied in the season.So again, in our cultural context, racial, ethnic context.Right.Let's take the pig.Right.There wasn't any part of that that you weren't going to put to use.Down to the intestines.

Speaker B00:29:25

Yeah.

Speaker A00:29:26

The chitterlings.Right.Chitlins, I like to say.

Speaker B00:29:28

Right.Yeah.

Speaker A00:29:29

So what I'm saying is that idea that you don't waste the season or the opportunity that's in front of you is something that had been forged and it's over hundreds of years of, you know, oppression, so on and so forth.And then.So now I'm hardwired to think, if I'm going to be here in this season, I'm gonna make.I'm gonna make this thing, you know, work for me for real.So I would say that, like, no one wants to stay in a season of discomfort for longer than they necessarily have to.But the best thing is to, like, just let it.Let you, like, allow yourself.Like, it's almost rewarding.It's almost, like, liberating.Like, just get the most out of it as you can.So maybe there's an opportunity to listen for something different.Like not.Not listening for the.The incorrectness of the audio levels and all that stuff.Maybe this is just an opportunity to say, hey, God, what are you saying by that?What are you saying by that?Maybe there's a different way and then it'll just take time and maybe that answer doesn't even show up right away.Yeah, I.So back to your thing about having left the church.Obviously we have that sort of shared experience, you know, having come out of the same.That same situation, similar.And it's taken.Even though that happened to me in our family roughly a year and a half, I think, ago.My math, it might be slightly off.There have been answers that we've been waiting on that wasn't like, week one, we finally got an answer, or a month out, six months out, we're still processing stuff and didn't get an answer for what the crap was the point of that experience.Right.All I know, I don't know the answer yet fully.What I can bank on is what he said.Romans 8, 28.Right.We know all things work together.I don't know exactly what it is, but I know it's working together for my good because I love the Lord.And so it will make sense one day.And it's super critical, essential, particularly as a.As a man, that if you haven't bought into that idea that your life experience, in the crummy parts of it, the stuff where you didn't get an answer, you had to wait it out until you got an answer.If.If you haven't finished, like, sort of processing that out and coming to terms with, you know, that's just the way it is.There's no way that you're going to be able to, as a man, lead, whether you're on the job, whether, you know, wife, children.Right.Like, if you're missing that part of your experience, you can only.And it goes back to the whole personal growth thing.You're just not going to.So I'm.That's part of what I'm doing is.Is using the season.As a guy, you really don't owe me answers for everything.Granted, it.It sucked.It was terrible.But what I'm gonna do is, you know, this expression goes, you know, when I.What is it?When I don't hear your voice, I'm gonna trust your hand.Right.I'm just gonna trust that you've been.You've been faithful, and this will make sense one day.

Speaker B00:32:18

Yeah.

Speaker A00:32:18

And that'll make me a better, you know, better man, better leader, etc.

Speaker B00:32:22

For sure.And.And seasons are temporary.So whether we have to step out of those good or bad seasons ourselves or God just has to direct us in that direction, sometimes the answers are just waiting on the other side of that season for us.So that's good.Yep.One thing I want to back up, kind of rewind to that, that you had said earlier, and then we'll get into a little bit of the ministry that.That you're doing now.But you were talking about your giftings, spiritual gifts and all that, and it's.It's interesting you say that, because I was.I was just listening to a different podcast yesterday at work, and he.I don't know.Do you.Are you familiar with Chris Harper?He's the CEO of Better Man.

Speaker A00:33:05

No.

Speaker B00:33:05

So him.I think it's him and maybe one or two other guys.I'm not sure how many, but he.Him and these other men were very instrumental.They were the ones who actually started the curriculum for one that we are.Have gone through before at our last church.

Speaker A00:33:23

Wow.

Speaker B00:33:23

Okay, so it's a series called Something 33.

Speaker A00:33:28

33, Yeah, yeah.So I didn't know that that was the connect.Okay.Yeah, yeah, yeah.Authentic manhood, I believe.

Speaker B00:33:34

Yeah.

Speaker A00:33:34

Yep.

Speaker B00:33:35

Yeah.So they, they were instrumental.And that's where that started at that.And yeah, I forget the name of this curriculum study, but it's all.That's all connected.Anyways, he was being interviewed on a podcast and he.He started talking about his own story and how the.He was talking about the difference between spiritual gifts and.Oh, what else was he talking about?Natural giftings and spiritual giftings.And he was talking about.I actually wrote down the quote here.He said, if we operate only from our natural giftings, we rob the cross of its power because Christ's power is made perfect in our weakness.And he said, sometimes your charisma can take you farther than your character can keep you.And so that whole conversation was just eye opening for me.And that's what made me think of it when you were talking about your giftings.And I feel like sometimes that the idea of, whether cultural or in the church, the idea of a biblical man, a lot of times carries with it the weight of, like, he's got to have a lot of charisma, he's got to have all these natural giftings.And I feel like sometimes we miss the spiritual gifting side of it where we have to rely on.On the Holy Spirit to guide us in those things.I don't know.So I don't know how much you've kind of interacted with that and seen where that's been a thing where, yeah, this guy's an authentic man, a biblical man, he's got charisma and he can do all these things.And I mean, even when you look at first Timothy, the only, the only qualifications, you know, in that context for an elder leader is the only one that has anything to do with talent, is able to teach.All the rest are character values.Right.So that's something I've been thinking through lately.And just like, how that intersects together.And sometimes we rely more on our natural giftings than the spiritual giftings.

Speaker A00:35:29

Yeah, I mean, I think all of that ties back to, you know, Adam in the garden.Like, yeah, God has a way, but he was waiting on me to show up so that I could do it.My.It's that kind of mentality.Right.So, like, I'll figure it out, you know, and.And then even once the, Once the eating of the fruit.Right.You sent.Right.So then what's your next move?Is your next.Is.Is your next move to then repent and go back to God and, like, go back in his face so you can get right.Or is it you cover up with your own figly.Again, back to that same natural giftings.I'm gonna go with what I got and what I can think about.So I think men are, like, kind of hardwired that way that the way you put it, natural giftings are the default.The spiritual giftings are the ones that you have to trust God for.And so there's just this discipline that's required to kind of go back.That's why we need, again, the whole biblical community thing, being surrounded by men who are all rowing in that direction that can nurture, you know, a.A God dependence in you that can.That can help you foster a sense of like, oh, yeah, no, I need him.I need his Holy Spirit to lead me as opposed to me figuring, you know, whole thing out by my.By myself.I think the.The unfortunate reality is that if you have a gift, natural or whatever, of otherwise, of just being charisma, naturally charismatic personality type, you have what I call the burden of responsibility.

Speaker B00:36:52

Wow.

Speaker A00:36:53

You.You.Like, there's an extra thing on you that you got to steward that, because that can definitely derail that train quick.

Speaker B00:37:01

Yeah.

Speaker A00:37:03

Because the.The person that doesn't have that is not as inclined to struggle with pride, at least in that same way, in that very overt ostentatious type of, like, you know, just spectacular, spectacular moral failure type of way.

Speaker B00:37:16

Yeah.

Speaker A00:37:17

So if you have that, I would encourage any man listening, like, yo, just.Just be extra.Like, you know, was it first, Peter?Let's see.Five, seven, you know, humble.Humble yourself under the mighty hand of God, and he will exalt you in due time.

Speaker B00:37:34

Yeah.

Speaker A00:37:35

So the burden on you is definitely heavier if that's your.If that's your thing.And I will say this, I'm a borrow a little bit of my Philadelphia Eagles fandom on this one.So our coach said not that long ago, he was being asked about, like, from a.From a team core value standpoint, what is it like, how was it you've been able to be.So he was like, if you want to fly fast, fly alone.If you want to fly, to fly far, fly together.And so he said, basically, the culture and the ethos of this family is like, we're together on this.Like, we're going to be lock stock, you know, one, one, one heartbeat.And I would say the same thing.The person who's dependent, like self dependent, self reliant.If you want to get the quick, immediate result, the one that kind of looks good, that most people are going to be attracted to in a very superficial way.And you, you, you know, maybe you make a quick buck or you, you know, you win someone over, you become a person of influence in the immediate sense.Sure, you rely on your little natural gift and you'll get that result.But if you really want to see this thing scale, where kingdom impact is happening in other people's lives and God is being honored and glorified and Christ's name is being exalted, you want to rely on those spiritual gifts because you know where your help comes from.

Speaker B00:38:44

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker A00:38:45

Yeah.

Speaker B00:38:45

And that's why I like he pointed out when he said, sometimes your charisma can take you farther than your character can keep you.Yeah.Oh, man, I gotta write.I'm gonna have to put that on my wall.Put that up somewhere, because that's really good.Now, I know there's a lot of different nuances and there's a lot of different in depth discussions on what is a biblical man look like.So if you had to give somebody like a Cliff Notes version, like, what would you say in your journey, Biblical manhood looks like?

Speaker A00:39:15

Yeah, so I think it has.Biblical manhood has so much to do with the idea that who you are as a man is shaped by, determined by, dictated by God.I mean, you can add sort of more colorful.You know, there's nuanced answers to that.I like the definition that Bishop Tony Evans gave.And it's escaping me at the moment, but it's basically the idea is one who, a male who has, I'm paraphrasing here, who's basically decided to live under like the lordship of Christ in every area of life.Right.And I think that that, that has to do with biblical manhood as well.And so for me, again, just kind of going back to my story, I think that idea had just was never clear.It just, it wasn't clear, like the places I was looking for, looking for it from, like, could not provide those answers.And so one of the sort of the linchpin experiences of my life was I was in my, again, mid-20s.I had just started to kind of be consistent with my spiritual life and spiritual development.You know, serving in ministry and being part of God's name and the whole thing.And my dad, who I hadn't seen in a little while or whatever, he came by, I was kind of doing my thing in my career I was working at the University of Penn.I, you know, gainfully employed that kind of thing.And I had.I knew we had to have like the talk, what I call the talk.He came by and stopped by my office and I kind of like had to let him, not let him have it.But I, I got some stuff off my chest to him about some ways in which he hurt me or just.And I was kind of letting him know I'm ready to move on from feeling like I need to fill your shoes or please you or whatever, any of that stuff.And I said to him, I think the words I said were, it's time for me to stop following, following my dad and start following my father.And he, he basically, like, that was the first time I knew I could see it in his eyes.Eyes.I'm looking in his eyes.And he, he looked at me as a man.Then he, like, I was 20, I think 25 when I had that conversation.I had never felt like I'm living my 20s, I'm doing.I had never felt like I had the rites of passage or coming of age thing happen.

Speaker B00:41:31

Yeah.

Speaker A00:41:31

And I, and I gave it to myself in a way in that, in that space.And so because that situation happened, I was putting myself in position to just by virtue of what I was saying, because this was how I wanted to live from this point on where God was going to begin to be the one who defined for me my identity, the agenda for my life, its purpose and its meaning.You know, I knew what was clear then was if I'm going to be able to get the most out of this, this spirit, soul, body continuum, it will be because I've given it over to him in his sort of purpose now, obviously sanctification and, and just kind of living with surrender and yieldedness and all of that is a lifelong.That's not, you know, something you just learn and do perfectly immediately.But I knew I was on the right course from that moment forward.So anybody who's not had that experience yet, like, yeah, put 10 toes in and know that like, God is the one who needs to lead you.

Speaker B00:42:34

Yeah, that's good.So.So Men on Purpose.You're the founding president of Men on Purpose.Why Men on Purpose?Where did it come from?What was that born out of for you?

Speaker A00:42:45

Yeah.So.So if you think about what Life was like April 2020.

Speaker B00:42:53

Oh yeah.

Speaker A00:42:53

So we were all locked down.Was the, the new thing was unprecedented times.Right.We heard that phrase, somebody's got their finger in the back.The of.They're like, oh, man, I'm a vomit, but I hear that one more time.

Speaker B00:43:05

Yeah.

Speaker A00:43:06

And so in that season of life, we were all, you know, quarantine, and, you know, we didn't know if folks had cooties.I ended up reaching out to like 20 of my closest male friends and colleagues.And I said, because I knew that there was kind of like this opportunity to regather people, because we were just in that full on assault, not only on our physical health, but our spiritual and emotional and relational health.Like all of that was under like this attack.Right.And so I just made this video and recorded it.And my son happened to be there at that time.I think he was like three years old somewhere around there.And some of those friends hadn't seen him.So it was kind of like a twofer.It was, I want to invite.Wanted to invite them to kind of know what was going on in my life, my son being one of them, and then also to invite them to get on like a call where I was going to cast my vision for, hey, let's, let's get together on a regular basis in whatever format.And this is before Zoom became like ubiquitous, right?

Speaker B00:44:05

Yeah.

Speaker A00:44:06

Just so we can encourage one another and explore the scriptures and all of that kind of stuff.And so I invited about 20 of them.About a dozen of them showed up the very next week, signed up for that little free Zoom account.It was the one where he had to get in and out like 40 minutes.

Speaker B00:44:20

I still twitch sometimes when people talk about Zoom because that I was leading a closed men's group during that time for the recovery program, and that was tough to get people to interact on Zoom.And by, I think about halfway through, nobody had their video on anymore.So it's like, are you really engaged?You know, that was tough, but yeah, yeah.

Speaker A00:44:42

And it is tough just to.And I think some of it was, you have to be brave enough to like, put your cards out.

Speaker B00:44:51

Yeah.

Speaker A00:44:51

So in the initial invite, when I invited them, I was letting them know I wasn't trying to make it about me, but I was saying, this is something I recognize that I need.And I'm gonna put my cards out to say, like, I'm as weak as anybody else without the Lord, without a steady dosage of, you know, being, you know, community oriented and us being together.Let's.How about we do this?And I'm gonna.As we go, I was casting this vision.I'm gonna make the environment very transparent and like, say, like, this things I'm struggling with, like, all that kind of stuff.So that tone was set from the very, very beginning.So anyone who's maybe even thinking about, I'm gonna start a group or I'm gonna whatever, like just know that that's a requisite.Like this idea of like, you, you set the tone for being vulnerable, transparent, authentic, all that stuff.Right?

Speaker B00:45:37

Yeah.

Speaker A00:45:38

And so like I said, a dozen showed up that first week.You know, they came back the next week and the numbers went up and down, but it started to be consistent.Like we just started getting together on a weekly zoom call.And then eventually we started calling them hashtag manhoodmonday.Right.Because we would meet, we would meet on Monday.And so after that we started calling ourselves men on a mission.We didn't know like what this thing was going to be.And that consistency we had out of the 52 weeks in a year, let's just say we had 40 sessions.So it was, it was a good little, little run.And then November 2022, we formalized it as a bonafide 501c3 non profit called men on Purpose.Men on Purpose Inc. And so that's what we've been running with.We have a board, we have a, you know, small but mighty leadership team.Basically how the structure works now is, you know, there's, there's dedicated fellowship time, you know, instruct informal.There's, you know, opening prayer, some housekeeping and announcements.Then we get into like the main part of the teaching time.I do the majority of the teaching.Not always, but I, I do most of it.We'll share, you know, something out of scripture.Sometimes it's like a video or something on YouTube, whatever.Then we'll break that down in, in the small group or group discussion.And then we'll do, you know, final word after that and then we close out with what we call praise report prayer requests.And so that's been our format every single week on Monday is that manhoodmonday session.That's what we're doing.And it's just been like game changing.I mean, the level of accountability.People like I remember see this last little bit for the first like year and a half.So we've been rocking for about three and a half years now.The first year and a half.And I don't think I did this on purpose, but this on purpose, but this wasn't intentional.But I think the, hey, I don't know if this is going to land with people and I'm trying to play it safe.We never talked about anything related to sexual purity for like A year and a half we were talking, we were beating all around the bush.I'm talking about, we were talking about everything under the sun, Biblical and like, what does God have to say to us?We were not touching that subject.And then all of a sudden like I was kind of convicted about that and I was like, hey, I know we haven't really broached this like publicly and this might throw some people off, but what if we kind of really get into the weeds of like what's keeping us?And I'm telling you, just we went there, we did a, like a summer study.And so now every year in the summertime, we'll intentionally devote that period of time to exploring, you know, fidelity in marriage and sexual purity.And so out of that came these little systems that we would use for accountability.So I have, have somebody right now who, they know when my peak temptation, let's just say temptation and all of that season happens and he's allowed to text me certain things and we have a check in process and that kind of thing.So that was built in and baked into it.And so now what we're seeing is just that, you know, and not that this is, you know, grown into like a global organization yet, yet those things that are not as though they were, but what's happened is it's super strong.We have an environment where people want to be there.We are growing.Our men are, you know, leading strong families and healthy marriages.They're, they're volunteering to do mentorship programs at schools, they're, you know, serving at their church, like all of that stuff that I believe God has called us to do as men of Kingdom impact.And so that's ultimately our mission, our mission statement, it's to exert Kingdom influence on families, organizations, communities and the world by empowering men with life transforming wisdom.So saying, saying that almost in the reverse, in a simpler way of saying, we use God's word as our primary tool to develop Kingdom men who have impact in the world around them.So once we see that happen, we know we're doing our job.We know we're doing our job.And so that's what we've been doing the last three and a half years.

Speaker B00:49:29

Awesome.Yeah, it's, it's definitely something I keep telling myself and I think I've told you a couple times that I need, I need to get in with this because for one, not being a member at a local church right now, it's very crucial for me to, to have that, to have that, that bonding with other Men.And for me, it's important because something I've experienced that I don't know if it has anything to do with being a man or a woman, but because of the burden I have for men and some of the.This, my story, like, I. I found myself after we left the church we were at before.I would.I would reach out to men who I was.I consider myself pretty close with while we were there, friends and stuff.But I reach out and see how they're doing, see if they needed prayer as God was putting them on my heart.And they'd talk back and forth for a little bit with me.And then, like, when they would ask how we were doing and stuff, and.And I would just, you know, tell them, hey, you could pray, because we're really trying to find a good local church.It's almost like we had the plague or something.And then at that point, I never heard from them ever again.So it's almost like an unstated culture where if you leave that church, it's like.It just felt like I had lost the relationships that I thought were good relationships with other men.And I've talked to my wife about it a lot.And, I mean, because she has ladies that still reach out to her and talk to her, but, yeah, it's just like.Like I had leprosy or something where as soon as you.You say that, it's like, oh, you're like, outside of our group now.And.

Speaker A00:51:11

Yep.

Speaker B00:51:12

So it's like, I thought we were friends.I thought we had a good relationship, but I guess, like, I was putting more into it than you, and that's why I feel like this is important and I appreciate what you guys are doing through men on purpose.Yeah, I have to stop using my schedule as an excuse and just dive in, because, man, there.There's times I really feel that.That absence where I need that.That relationship with other men for sure.Now that you've been doing this for a couple years, and what do you feel like maybe some of the.The biggest struggles are that you feel like men are facing today as far as understanding what.What a biblical man looks like?

Speaker A00:51:53

I think for.For what men are struggling with now is.Is the man in the mirror.In a lot of cases, what we're struggling is, like, us getting out of our own way.Yeah, that's just a big thing.I have all the answers.I know what's going on.You know, I know what's best for my own life.Nobody could tell me otherwise.And if you look at, again, the plight of not a plate.The.You know, the story of Adam and how we got into this mess in the first place, that's basically the same mentality.It's just carried over, just taking different forms and different iterations.But that's kind of where, you know, where.Where things land, I would say, obviously, there's another sort of.That's in the.That's in the, you know, introspective in the.Looking out in the world.There's just more stuff that's accessible now than it's ever been.Right.Which is why, for our standpoint at men, on purpose, like, we love the fact that we can be online and still create that environment where safety.So, like, of all of the places that you would go online where there is like a.It's.It's a minefield.

Speaker B00:52:53

Yeah.

Speaker A00:52:54

Right.Everywhere you step.Right.Just.Just logging into your.On your online email.Right.Just whatever.There's ad right over there.There's a, you know, video that takes you.And you weren't even looking for that.You would just.Right.So just to have that kind of space where it is safe.This is why I'm grateful for the.The impact that, you know, those men from my experience had in my life.And just Jesus, you know, my relationship with him in general is going back to that John, you know, you know, in Jesus dynamic.Jesus created an environment where John could lay down and not feel like, oh, I'm being a punk by doing this right now.Because that's what a lot of people are feeling like.Like the pride and all of that that they've conjured up in their own mind is so massive and so, you know, dictatorial in their.In their experience that the idea of confessing.The Bible literally says, confess your faults one to another and pray for another that you might be healed.But you're sitting there thinking, if I confess.Wait a minute.It's not even just the confession.It's the.Most men don't want to put themselves in a position to appear to be weak.

Speaker B00:54:04

Yeah.

Speaker A00:54:05

To get the healing that they actually desperately need.So I think that that unto itself is an issue.And the problem.There's.There's the internal stuff, and obviously there's just the external external, which is like temptation and different things that are pulling from every different direction.And the third and final, which is obviously also connected to the world and the world system as well, is just.It's a cacophony.And what I mean by that is there are.Everybody's got a message.Everybody's got something they're trying to tell you, trying to woo you to this or that there's distractions as far as the eye can see.And with men it's kind of like because we are, yes, goal oriented and so therefore tend to be.Tend to.Not always, in all cases tend to be better at compartmentalizing and focusing and laser vision and that kind of stuff that, that we can sort of side steps some of that.But you know, we're just as carnal and broken as.As anyone else.And so it's like that turbulence of voices and whatnot can also get the best of us.Where it's like, oh, you know, I'm thinking about where my dad is.It's not to knock him or anything, but I'm just thinking like you've been exposed to truth.You are introduced to the same Jesus that I was introduced to.

Speaker B00:55:15

Yeah.

Speaker A00:55:15

And you're just completely divergent paths.Right.In terms of like what, what all that meant.And so.Yeah.So that's just an example of that.I think that those are at least three.I don't know how many, how many I listed here, but those were definitely things.Things I, I seen, you know, on a week to week, ongoing basis.

Speaker B00:55:32

Yeah, for sure.One of the big things we've always heard.I know.Well, I say we as in you and I because we've both been through a similar study on authentic manhood.

Speaker A00:55:42

Right.

Speaker B00:55:42

And one of the biggest things they say is about, they talk about rejecting passivity and I think that's a huge deal.But I also think there's a level of ignorance involved nowadays because like you were saying, there's so much information out there and a lot of the younger generation is just, it's just about consuming all this information.And even consuming the information is a, I feel like is a form of passivity.And it's, there's just at some point you have to take action.I started reading a book.I don't know if have you ever read Atomic Habits?

Speaker A00:56:17

I'm so I got it downloaded.It's.It's on my, it's in my queue to get to it and I've heard nothing but good things.And I heard people drop gems, but.Share, please share.

Speaker B00:56:26

Yeah, so I, I went and bought at Walmart yesterday because I was listening to a podcast episode where the author was talking about the book.

Speaker A00:56:33

Yeah.

Speaker B00:56:33

And I was like, I've got to get this book.I suffer from decision paralysis.Right.Like even with the content for the podcast and stuff, like I do all this research and I consume all this Information.And sometimes my wife is like, just put out the content, you, you know, and just, just do it.Take a little step.And that's one thing in the book Atomic Habits he talks about.He's like, we get, we get so focused on the goals that we forget to build those.Those habits and systems that get us to the goals.Right.In some ways, I feel like I'm a visionary.And that's why sometimes I have the decision paralysis, because I'm looking so far out, I'm like, this is what I see.This is what I want to do and accomplish, but building those small habits.And he talked about a guy that was trying to lose weight and he went to the gym.He would drive to the gym and do like half an exercise and be there for like five, 10 minutes and then go home.And some people hear that, they're like, that's not going to do anything.But, but the fact that he was just building that little habit of going and starting something, you know, got him to the point where eventually he was.Developed a good habit and system to where he lost the weight he wanted to.So that's, that's one thing I, I noticed, especially in my own life, is just take that one small next step where you are today to, to get you and where you want to go and to build those systems to get you to the goals you want to.I forget where I was going with that, but I was.Yeah.Talking about, like, rejecting passivity.That's where I was applying it to.

Speaker A00:58:06

Right.

Speaker B00:58:06

Just taking the next step.Right.Like sometimes we fail as men and we, we see the big picture and we say, oh, like I'm failing as a husband or a father or as a man.I'm not doing this, and I'm not doing this.I need to, well, just take that one small step to do that next thing, whether it's, you know, whatever.Whatever that looks like for you.

Speaker A00:58:28

I think in most cases it's just a matter of priority, the priority of the heart.Here's what I mean by that.I'm talking about all the way down to.Because I know where you are as far as, like, pro, you know, analysis prowess and stuff like that.I have a little, a little bit of that, you know, going on too.You have to decide in that space if.What, what the priority is.The, the discomfort over the proceed.The perceived loss of control is more important than getting the ball rolling.

Speaker B00:59:00

Yeah.

Speaker A00:59:01

And again, to borrow the expression, it's easier to move a car that's, you know, already moving, sort of moving a Park car, like just kind of initiate something in, you know, in faith and just realize that like, God can steer you from there as you're already in motion.David was already in motion.Moses was already in motion.Like all those guys that guy called Joseph, like, you look at all their stories.They were already kind of in the space of something that would later become their calling.David was shepherding sheep.He would later shepherd a nation.Right?

Speaker B00:59:33

Yeah.

Speaker A00:59:34

Similar for Moses.Right.Just kind of get the ball rolling in that direction because you have to overcome the perceived threat that like, oh, you know, the whole world will collapse if I don't make this perfect decision.It's like, you know, get over yourself.So I'm kind of working through that as well.In, in some ways, like a lot of the content that I want to share, I want it to sound a certain way and that kind of thing come across a certain way and exude credibility and all that stuff.

Speaker B01:00:01

Yeah.

Speaker A01:00:01

So people come back more.But the, the reality is like, come on, dude, you're not, you're not.You're just not that kind of important.What, what matters most is like, can you nudge people to see him more through your life?I hope to put myself in a position where, and this is one of the things, like I said, even, even with mental purpose when we're meeting, I hope that they see me as one who can inspire them to pursue the heart of God, to, to maximize their own life.Like, if that's what you got from coming to one is perfect, my job is done.

Speaker B01:00:42

Yeah, perfect, Perfect.

Speaker A01:00:44

So, yeah, just again, as far as passivity, I think has a lot to do with the, the fear, like of your own reputation, not, you know, I'm so important that I.And that's whether you're on the I'm highly charismatic side or you're on the, like, I'm overthinking it.I don't want to start anything.A lot of them, both sides kind of have still have to do with thinking yourself more perhaps than you ought to.

Speaker B01:01:08

Yeah, for sure.And I, I also, I heard him say something about the book when he was talking about atomic habits.He was talking about that exact thing.How we fear doing things sometimes because of the perception it'll have or the failure and what we think people will think about us.And so, yeah, it's good stuff.

Speaker A01:01:29

Yeah.

Speaker B01:01:30

And I appreciate what you guys are doing.I read a stat yesterday.It said there's about 360, 000 churches in the West.About 80% have a functioning women's ministry.Less than 7% have a functioning men's ministry.

Speaker A01:01:44

There it is.

Speaker B01:01:46

That is a huge gap.

Speaker A01:01:48

There it is.

Speaker B01:01:48

And, and what they mean by functioning men's ministry.I'm not knocking people who do this in their church, but it's more functioning in the sense that it's more than just getting together a couple times a year to have a huntman dinner, whatever they call it, or have an ex, you know, an ex NFL player, whoever come in and talk to them.Yeah.This is intentional, intrusive ministry.

Speaker A01:02:11

Yeah.

Speaker B01:02:13

What's your hope with men on purpose in that respects, because you're not necessarily connected to a one local church.Is your hope to kind of help spread that and educate and teach people more in those arenas or.

Speaker A01:02:29

Yeah.So we're in a very exciting and terrifying season right now where because I'm in the middle of a career shift and transition, we were blessed to be able to partner up with a local church.A pastor that, you know, heard about what we were doing, was a friend of a friend.I, you know, I was blessed to get a private meeting with him.I mean, pastor of a larger, large, larger church here in the area and decided to support us to scale.So, yeah, like, everything I described about what we do has only been amongst, amongst like, friends and like friends of friends.Like, it's been like one degree of separation.Like it's either somebody I know personally or like that that person knows.

Speaker B01:03:08

Yeah.

Speaker A01:03:08

And we are just embarking on a, you know, scaling effort thanks to this partnership and, you know, seed funding to be able to expand.So I, you know, we are look out for the hashtag Manhood Monday podcast.You know, going to be dropping real soon.That'll be have a presence on both YouTube and in likelihood Spotify and a couple of different other platforms.So that, that's what's happening is we want to see that, you know, continue to scale and expand and then, you know, really beyond that.I think the main thing for us though, is creating the experience that I described, like, at scale.So we have this grand vision for other things that we want to offer.Apprenticeships and credentialing and certifications and, you know, different offerings outside of just, you know, courses, all that stuff.

Speaker B01:03:56

Yeah.

Speaker A01:03:57

But right now we're just sticking with how can we make, how can we fine tune and continue to make the community experience, like, as solid, as rock solid as it, you know, as it can be and has been.So that is all exciting and like, I'm moving into where, like, I'll be able to devote much More of my time and energies and stuff to it and, and just super grateful for that opportunity.

Speaker B01:04:17

Yeah, that's awesome.I'm excited about, you know, what you guys have coming and the ways God has blessed through that and provided for you guys, which was on the other side of that season you had recently.

Speaker A01:04:30

And soon it'll be us guys, because you won't be seeing you guys.

Speaker B01:04:33

Yeah.Yes.Yep.I admit it.I need to do it.

Speaker A01:04:38

You know, there's a warm seat waiting for you.

Speaker B01:04:40

That, that is the next small step I need to take in my week.Yeah, good.Great, sir.

Speaker A01:04:49

Yes.

Speaker B01:04:49

Let's just kind of closing out our time thinking about this area of biblical manhood.What would you say are some ways maybe that you've seen recently God manifest his power through your weakness in this area?Yeah.

Speaker A01:05:07

One of the main things goes going back to the, like, you're stop taking yourself so seriously.So I've told, I've shared this story a bunch of times in, in the community.This is my Kawhi Leonard story.So for all, you know, men listening that follow sports, the NBA in particular, you know, Kawhi Leonard, like, I think two, three time champion, NBA champion, star player.And he's still kind of maybe on the tail end of his prime, but still, you know, still super, super good player.But what he's also known for is having like the personality of a peapod when he's being interviewed.Like, it's super awkward.He's socially awkward.Like, it's just like, you know.

Speaker B01:05:44

Yeah.

Speaker A01:05:45

But he's like, sort of like laser focused because he will just be somewhere else.You're trying to talk to him, he's just kind of somewhere else.And so what?One day, one day when we were, you know, this happened in our marriage a couple years ago, I was really locked in on like, hey, I'm not gainfully employed.So I was working my side business trying to get that worked up because I'm going to take care of my family.We want to do this thing right.And week after week started to pass by and my wife and I, we kind of became ships passing in the night.One day she walks in, she's having a hard day of work herself.I'm sitting by the computer.She's like, hey, babe.And I go, hey.And I kind of, I didn't, I barely turned around, you know, that kind of thing.And she's sitting in the kitchen in my, my flower, as I call her, she says to me, I need you to stop Kawhi Leonard ing me broke, like come from that completely, like, oh, snap.I just realized in this sort of effort to be provider of the family and, you know, all that I was like, forsaking her needs.And, you know, and ever since then, God has just been kind of showing me, like, be emotionally available.That might not be a thing for everybody in every marriage or in every whatever.I had to learn to stop taking myself so seriously that I'm so laser focused on what I'm thinking about that I'm really missing the big win.Right.And so for me, that was.I took on this commitment, this covenant relationship, and that's what marriage is.It's a covenant.So if that's the relationship you in, that's the standard.And so just.Just meaning that, like, you know, ephesians, what is five?I want to say 25.Somewhere in that neighborhood, husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it.You know, and there's a part in there where it talks about cleansing and the washing of the water by the Word, but that part comes after the.And he gave himself for her.

Speaker B01:07:46

Yeah.

Speaker A01:07:46

Right.And so that's what I.One of the things I had to learn is that, like, I was just doing a terrible job at that.And the more the Holy Spirit leads, he's helping me to pay attention to the cues.And so I'm thankful to say that, like, even now in this process recent season, there's a little bit of, like, a.Like a playfulness in our environment.You know, now I'm.I'm grateful for, like, the dynamic that's in the household now, that even though we're.We're both, like, struggling through certain things, we, you know, we have.We're.We're wondering, like, God, when is.When is going to be this big break?Like, when are we going to get answers to that pain that we experience?You know, all of that stuff.

Speaker B01:08:14

Yeah.

Speaker A01:08:15

But between us, we're.That's just a simple way that we're putting our hands in the Lord and, you know, being emotionally available to each other, trying to honor him as we honor our wedding vows.And so it's made all the difference.

Speaker B01:08:28

Yeah.That's really good.Yeah, I've.I've noticed some of those same things in my own life lately.And it's a process.And process.All right.Well, man, I appreciate your time.Appreciate it.And the conversation is good.I'm always encouraged after talking to you.And stretched as well.Like I said before, now, if people want to find out more information about men on purpose, I know you don't have.The website's not up yet.There's some.Some things going on there, but like email or YouTube, like where how can people get a hold of you and find out more about men on purpose?

Speaker A01:09:04

Yep.So, minor update.We actually do have a standing website.It's probably going to change a little bit, but as of the time of this recording, in all likelihood, you'll be able to find us@menonpurpose.Podia.Men on purpose.So, like, not men of purpose.Men on purpose.The premise is this.And we.This is one of our taglines is don't make them like following the story of Adam.Right.Don't make a mistake and be a man.Be a man on purpose.Right.So think of it that way.Menonpurpose.podia podia.com and that's where you'll be able to find us.Sign up for the community and then also check out the to Coming soon.Coming soon.The again, hashtag Manhood Monday podcast, which is on YouTube.And so our YouTube handle is @menonpurpose.Okay.So that's where you can find us on.In both spaces.

Speaker B01:09:53

Yeah, sounds good.And we've got the information.We'll put in the.The links to the podcast episode.We'll put links to all that that you already filled out on our guest form, and we'll also have it on the website as well.He'll have a guest profile there@theprodigaljourney.com so you'll be able to find that there.If you haven't yet subscribed, be sure to go over to the website and sign up for updates through email, whether podcasts, blog posts, newsletters, whatever that looks like.Make sure you subscribe.Yeah.

Speaker A01:10:23

Yeah, man.

Speaker B01:10:23

Man, I appreciate it.

Speaker A01:10:24

Same, bro.

Speaker B01:10:25

I think it was a good conversation.So we could probably go much longer, but I think we might have to do a different episode.

Speaker A01:10:32

Yeah, let's do a part two.

Speaker B01:10:33

Let's do it.

Speaker A01:10:33

Let's do it.

Speaker B01:10:34

All right.Thanks for joining us.We'll see you next time on the Prodigal Journey.Thanks for tuning in to the Prodigal Journey, where we celebrate Christ's power through our weakness.This podcast is available on all major platforms, so be sure you go and subscribe or leave us a review.Also, if you'd like to reach out, you can reach me, Ben@theprodigaljourney.com.That's Ben@theprodigaljourney dot com.Tune in next time to the Prodigal Journey.The commercials at the beginning of the podcast are pre generated by the audio hosting site and do not necessarily reflect the views of a Journey podcast network.

Speaker A01:11:31

Sam.