Eroding or Refining? Navigating Toxic Environments & Why Getting Fired Is a Compliment

Speaker A00:00:00

Welcome to another episode of the Prodigal Journey.I am host of the Prodigal Journey.Ben and I have joining me today, my wife Dawn.Welcome.

Speaker B00:00:46

Thank you.It's good to be here.

Speaker A00:00:48

It took us a while to get all set up, but we are recording.And this podcast episode, I just want to lay some framework because this one has been kind of in the making since September of last year.Actually, before we get into that, I just want.I want to talk about the identity crisis of the podcast first, because I think this is important.Even though you.I know you don't think it's as important.

Speaker B00:01:28

No, that's not that.That is not what I was thinking.I was thinking you.You want to.You want people to see us fight on here, don't you?

Speaker A00:01:38

No, I. I just want to set some context to some struggles I've had in getting out some episodes that I've been working on, but that I didn't feel like, necessarily fit the context of what the podcast was versus what it was kind of becoming in itself.Because when I first started, started out as more.Mostly interviews, people telling their stories of recovery and redemption.And since then, it's kind of morphed into, on its own, just something that includes a lot of other things besides just people's interviews sometimes include stuff about our faith in relation to culture, creativity, just other things that aren't just, like recovery stories.So ideas I was having and trying to get prepared for an episode.I was kind of in, like, a funk because I was like, this doesn't fit what the podcast is.And it was a couple months of, like, wrestling through that.And then when I shared it with you, your idea was just hit record.People don't care about that.But that was kind of my struggle because at first it was kind of like.It had a tagline of.It started with, like, oh, what was the first one I used?Celebrating Christ's power through our weakness, which was a pretty good fit.And then it morphed into Every Story Matters.So then that felt like it kind of pigeonholed the podcast into just stories.But once I kind of thought through it and straightened it out, I think it's on a good trajectory now, and I don't feel as pigeonholed and paralyzed.And so I think a lot of that has helped me, motivating me to move forward when.Yeah, maybe I should just hit record and get the episodes recorded while I'm figuring that out.But.But I thought that was.It was pretty funny.We didn't fight about it.We just I appreciate.I appreciate the pushback and I guess even saying that, like, kind of starts to set up some of this episode that we're about to do, and we can tie that in a little bit as we're talking about it, but.So now the podcast has moved into more of the language I've updated.Now it says it's a podcast about faith, struggle and becoming, told through stories, conversations, and real life experiences.From mental health and healing to relationships, recovery, spiritual growth.This is a space for honest dialogue about what it means to navigate life authentically while pursuing deeper meaning, hope, and transformation.Because the journey isn't just about where we've been, it's about who we're becoming.And I think that, like, sets it up perfectly because.I know.I think before, I think part of it, you thought I just wanted to create another logo, which I love doing.

Speaker B00:04:54

No, that was a joke.

Speaker A00:04:55

Okay.

Speaker B00:04:56

I was totally joking about you creating another logo because you love to.You love your merch and that's fantastic.I love that you love your merch.No, I. I feel like it was a personality thing where you are more analytical.Yeah, well, not just that, but it's a.It's this idea that everything has to have its place.And this goes in this spot and this goes in this spot.

Speaker A00:05:35

And.

Speaker B00:05:35

Whereas I can repurpose things in a different way.So, yeah, maybe it's.Maybe it's more analytical and more creative.Maybe.I mean, you could label it a lot of different things, but I just see that in you, like when just in roles in our house where, you know, we're setting up our house and we're trying to organize, hey, where are we going to put this?Where are they going to put that?And then you, you this in your mindset and you're.You're like, oh, I need to go and buy this thing to put this thing in.And I'm just not like that.I'm just like, we don't need a thing to put the thing in.We can just put the thing right there.

Speaker A00:06:20

Yeah, yeah.And I.But I think it's interesting because for me, it did create some paralysis in getting things done for the podcast.

Speaker B00:06:31

Yeah, right.

Speaker A00:06:32

So I had to wrestle through that because as much as I love creating things and making birch or logos or whatever it is, I did not want to go through all that work for the podcast because of the fact of, like, it's taken me so long to get it to where it is now.And then you gotta come up with a new name.You have to come up with A new logo, new colors even, maybe.And then like the whole podcast structure of when it gets pushed out.Like, you gotta change all that and change the website, and it just was too much.So I wanted to make it fit.I just didn't know how to make it fit with what it was turning into to include more of those things.But I'm glad I've got that figured out.

Speaker B00:07:15

Yeah.I basically just said, just change your tagline.

Speaker A00:07:18

Yeah, so you told me that.And then I got upset.

Speaker B00:07:24

Hit record.Change your tagline.Stop overthinking it.Just do it.

Speaker A00:07:29

Yeah, so.But I'm so leading that into.

Speaker B00:07:34

See you did.You wanted everybody to hear us fight,.

Speaker A00:07:38

Not fight.I just.I just appreciate the pushback and the ways you help me think through things.And I think that's healthy for a relationship, no matter if it's a.A marriage or, you know, dating, engaged or family dynamic.Which leads us into the.The topic of conversation, which for this one, we're going to talk about eroding or refining navigating toxic environments.And this specifically came out of a situation that I went through last year, and it's taken me some time to work through it to where I can talk about it a little bit more publicly, to where I'm not like, just attacking people.I'm in a more healthy spot that I feel like I can talk about it publicly and not come across as attacking or anything.So we're going to try to navigate this as best as we can, because even through preparing for this episode, you and I have had conversations with people the last few months that has to do with this topic.And so I think it's an important thing that a lot of people wrestle through, maybe not just with a work situation, but with just environments and relationships in general that they don't know how to navigate it.So I think a lot of what we put together was things people encouraged me with during that time, and also some things I wish people had said.So I think that's going to be helpful in people navigating this.Yeah.So I hope it helps people.And I say that because, um, we'll get into it a little bit later.But, like, even the fact that we have pushback with each other is healthy, because if you always surround yourself with people who are.Yes.People and just affirm everything you say, it's going to be, your life's going to be miserable.I feel like.

Speaker B00:09:40

Yeah, same at N. And the issue that I see with that is they don't know their life is miserable and they think that more of the same will make it better when it's actually a lot of times it's getting out of our own heads, which is what I think.You know, I was trying to help you do and just being open to reason and open to thinking that, hey, maybe my way of thinking is not setting myself up for success.So, yeah, we're going to talk about toxic environments and I love to kind of define what that word is because a lot of people throw it around and I just want to make sure that it's defined in a healthy way.When I think of the word toxic, I think something that can't survive, something that can't even thrive, or maybe you can survive, but you can't thrive.

Speaker A00:10:50

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good way to look at it.

Speaker B00:10:56

So part of this and.And I think this is maybe close this gap too.Why you might have been struggling to create episodes lately was because you had this part of your life that was toxic and you're trying to figure out how to navigate that.And it's.It was using up a lot of your energy.All of your energy is going into this environment that's just sucking the life out of you.Whereas a non toxic environment would be a life that's flourishing and thriving and growing and toxicity is like death.

Speaker A00:11:41

Yeah, I think that's an important distinction because I would definitely echo the fact.And you would probably say this as well.Like I was.I was surviving, but I was not thriving.

Speaker B00:11:52

No.

Speaker A00:11:52

During that time.

Speaker B00:11:53

And Justin, just an is interesting.Like you want to talk about another fight we had about the weed eater?

Speaker A00:12:01

No, we don't have to get.This isn't a relationship episode necessarily.We can maybe do a different episode on relationships, but just.

Speaker B00:12:10

Yeah, just your whole way of thinking was.Marred.I don't know another word but like just messed up.Like went into all different areas of your life.Like, even when you're doing yard work, you couldn't.

Speaker A00:12:30

It deeply infected every area.

Speaker B00:12:31

Right?Yeah, infected's a good word.Yeah.

Speaker A00:12:35

So I think I'm glad you brought that up because not only was it.Not only was that affecting my ability to record and get episodes done because of all that energy being put there into that.But also like, part of me felt like my voice had been stripped away.Like people.In the beginning, I was allowing the things people were making up about me and saying to kind of in a way strip my voice.Which led into the podcast where I was like, I don't feel like I have a voice.Like, why am I even bothering to Record, you know, put this content together.So, yeah, it just infected every area of my life.And.

Speaker B00:13:15

Yeah.

Speaker A00:13:17

And as we think about kind of defining this before we kind of get into talking about patterns instead of people.Another thing I think of when I think of defining toxic, it's not identifying it as the same thing as being something that's just hard.

Speaker B00:13:37

Right.

Speaker A00:13:38

Like, we know God tells us things sometimes are just going to be hard.

Speaker B00:13:42

Mm.

Speaker A00:13:43

So I think it's important for us to make that distinction.Toxic and hard or difficult are not the same things.

Speaker B00:13:49

Right.Yeah.I think the.The main thing is I like to think of the difference between brokenness and dysfunction.When something's broken, it.It can be fixed.It can be mented.Mended.When something's dysfunctional, it does not work.There's.There's no.There's nothing like broken necessarily.It's like, it does.There's nothing to fix because it doesn't work at all.

Speaker A00:14:23

Yeah.Yeah.That's a good distinction as well.And I.And I also, like, you're talking about dysfunction, like, it can feel normal over time.Mm.

Speaker B00:14:36

Especially if you're used to that and you're in a survival mode where you can't assess patterns.I think being able to assess patterns is huge.And I've been in situations like this.This is so common.I don't like.You know, we're talking specifically about some of the things that you more recently experienced, but we've all experienced this.And once you get out of it and then you can look back and you're like, oh, oh, that's.Of course, that's a pattern.That's.And it seems so, like, obvious on the other side, but when you're in the middle of it, it's really difficult for that critical thinking piece in your mind to, like, kick into gear.

Speaker A00:15:24

Yeah.

Speaker B00:15:25

Which.Which is kind of the point.

Speaker A00:15:29

Right.Oh, and I did.Okay.I didn't preface this before we started.I meant to preface this that anybody from my current job who sees this.I'm not talking about my current job.

Speaker B00:15:41

We're not talking about our current jobs and our current church.

Speaker A00:15:45

And I want to make sure I preface that because I'm in a good job right now.And.

Speaker B00:15:51

Yeah.Yeah.

Speaker A00:15:52

It's a huge difference.So that being said.Yeah.None of this is connected at all to that.So.Yeah.So let's.So that kind of gives, like, a little bit of a definition of what toxic looks like.Patterns, dysfunction versus being broken.Let's talk about some categories, because I think this would be helpful for people in just kind of like identifying what this might look like.

Speaker B00:16:20

Yeah, the pattern.

Speaker A00:16:21

Yeah.And also to say this, like we talked about it, feeling normal over time, I would probably say that when I first started that job, none of this stuff was happening.So whether that's due to the fact that like over time, like it just the business model and the structure got off track, or I was in a position where I wasn't as exposed to these patterns because I had worked my way up to management and once I got to that position, maybe I started seeing red flags that I wasn't noticing before.Does that make sense?So all that to say, like you might get into a position or environment where it might, you might not notice it at first and things might start out really good and we could talk about later.I think there is a point where I notice the shift, but we, we can definitely talk about that at some point.But just for people to know, like, because that starts, you start noticing things, doesn't mean there's something wrong with you that you didn't notice it before.

Speaker B00:17:31

Yeah.

Speaker A00:17:31

Because it might not necessarily mean that before those things were happening.Or you're just, it could just be you're now more aware to see those things.Like there's so many different factors that.

Speaker B00:17:44

There are, there are too many factors.So much so that I feel like a part of it is spending energy in a way that's not necessarily helpful.Where you're just kind of churning your wheels and thinking, you know, well, has this always been like this?Has this, you know, what's different now?And it's, it still doesn't necessarily help someone decide whether to remain in that environment or to leave that environment or necessarily even to understand what is currently happening, happening in that environment and how it's, you know, affecting, infecting, however you want, you want to say it other parts of your life.

Speaker A00:18:34

Right.Yeah.And so just thinking through some categories of what these patterns might look like.Some things we noted were control or fear based leadership, inconsistent expectations where, you know, they might say one thing and then punish another.You know, neglect of basic needs.You wouldn't think this would be one, but.

Speaker B00:19:02

Right.

Speaker A00:19:03

This, this was one of the biggest issues I was facing.So neglect of basic needs, just like breaks during your day, safety, health.I mean those are huge and speak a lot to how an employer or person views somebody else.Another one we noted was manipulation.So just like favoritism or division, you know, causing strife among people in the environment.

Speaker B00:19:35

Yeah.And I think something helpful from here is to talk about each one of these categories and talk through patterns and provide some examples of those patterns.And you and I were talking about this before we started recording, but how talking through these examples.So if to kind of.I guess we need to kind of rewind a little bit and reel back.I've.I've come out of a lot of toxic situations.And so when I was in those situations, I was trying to figure out, am I in a toxic environment?And I would read these different articles that gave me very specific examples.And for me, it wasn't.It just wasn't like, I don't wanna say it wasn't helpful.And maybe, and maybe it was totally me, but I would get an example of, oh, say your husband slams the car brakes and you hit your head on the dashboard.He's abusive if he does that.And I would like read that.And I would say, okay, well, my husband didn't do that, so he's not abusive.And I.It wasn't helpful for me to understand the patterns.So you and I were talking earlier and we were like, how can we provide examples that are more general in nature that people can, like, identify with?And it hones more in on helping people identify a pattern, which is really what you have to do when you're assessing this situation is a pattern of behavior.So, for example, we talk about dysfunction and brokenness.Okay, brokenness looks like this.Let's say this is brokenness.You and I have a disagreement about something.I bring an issue up to you, and then we discuss it and we talk through what we can do different.We fix it.So that's brokenness.It's not that something, something was wrong, we fixed it.Whereas dysfunction would be like this shutting down of, I had.I bring something up to you and that issue isn't even addressed.Somehow we get into this whole other conversation of not even addressing the real issue.And that's.That's kind of like, that's manipulation, that's control.That's a mix of things.But ultimately what was originally bothering me wasn't even addressed.And so I think that these examples, these different ways that we're trying to illuminate these patterns, we're going to try to be respectful of previous situations that we've been in and not slander, but also just try to be very helpful and not be too specific so that it kind of like pigeonhole people into thinking, oh, well, no, that's not happening in my work environment, or that's not.So then I'm not in a toxic situation.But am I?I feel Like, I am.

Speaker A00:23:05

Yeah, it's definitely hard to navigate because you think in your mind of specific situations that fall into these categories, but you want people to be able to identify with the patterns, you know, not necessarily like, oh, this was his.Their story that they shared, and I can't identify with that.So it definitely is kind of tough to navigate that.Like, as you were talking about that, I'm thinking of specific situations.For instance, you brought up the idea of, like, you were talking about, like, talking about things in meetings.So I'm thinking specifically through that because there was a lot of times as a manager I would bring stuff up in meetings like that.We need to address things that need to change that fall into the category of neglect of basic needs.And this might also fall into, like, inconsistent expectations, maybe.But we would talk about those things and the other managers above me would be all on board, excited about it, like, yeah, this is a problem.But then 10, 15 minutes later, after the meeting, like, we'd go long periods of time even without that thing being fixed or addressed.

Speaker B00:24:20

Yeah.

Speaker A00:24:21

So it's like, rah, rah.We're on board with what you're saying, but behind this, behind that, we're not.We're just not gonna do anything to fix it because we don't really think it's important.

Speaker B00:24:31

Yeah.

Speaker A00:24:31

So it's almost like this is what we're saying, but this is not what we're gonna do.I guess that kind of hits a lot of different categories, but, yeah, yeah, that.

Speaker B00:24:43

That could hit on, like, maybe operational inefficiencies and a lack of clear direction on how to change those things.Or.Or, you know, I guess, like, just when things get hard, doing the hard work of, hey, we said we're going to do this, but we're not doing it.So, you know, there's.There's a lack of.There.There's not a promise that's been kept.Hey, we agreed on this, and it's not being done.So that's eroding.And then also, like, what are we missing when we're not doing the things that we say we're going to do?Is there a lack of accountability?Is there a lack of systems?There's so many different issues, but it goes kind of back to the main thing of toxicity is whatever it is, there is not a system in place for flourishing and thriving.It's.There's erosion, there's not refining.

Speaker A00:25:55

Right.Yeah.Yeah.And that's something definitely we want to keep in mind.Walking through this is for people to come back to that continually asking, like, is this environment eroding or is it refining me?And that's an important distinction to make because, you know, kind of the one thing I kind of wrote down here to kind of sum up the definition of all this was like, toxicity is not only different from something being hard, toxicity is not pressure.It's a pattern that slowly erodes your clarity, dignity, and health.So that's a good way for people to think through, like, how do I continue to separate this to, you know, identify if this is what's happening, if it's eroding or refining me?So I think that's another important distinction.And you had also kind of thought through some examples that were a little less story oriented and more pattern oriented.So we can look at some of those as well.

Speaker B00:27:01

Yeah, so one example I had, it was when an employee is consistently harsh in their communication and dismissive towards other coworkers.And there's not a, I'm trying to think of the word.There's not a way that this specific behavior is addressed.So, for example, you have a team member that complains about this person, rather than the manager going to this, the person that's complaining and saying, hey, I think you should have a conversation with that person and, and let them know how their behavior is affecting you and how they're coming across.That would be a healthy way to address a situation.You.You go to somebody and you say, hey, when, when you said this, it came across like this to me.Is that what you, is that how you meant to come across?And then that person can say, hey, hey, yeah, I totally meant to offend you,.

Speaker A00:28:19

But you're giving them that opportunity to own it.

Speaker B00:28:23

Right, right.Or they could say, oh, I did not realize I came across in that way.But I think in, in toxic environments, it's almost when managers don't get down to the root of the issue and try to fix it in the most simplistic of ways.But when they feed off of that and just like, make it worse and escalate it, and they either dismiss that person that has a concern and say, oh, that's just how they are, or say something like, well, just, just avoid them.Just like, you know, you don't really have to interact with them or, or they say they agree with you and they're like, yeah, it's awful, it's horrible.You know, what can we do about it?Neither one of those really goes back to the main issue of there's a breakdown in communication between two people.What really needs to Happen is those two people need to build that communication back up, and they need to build trust with each other back up.If we're not doing that, then everything else is just distraction.Smoke and mirrors, you know.

Speaker A00:29:46

Yeah, for sure.Yeah.When it's interesting you say that, because when I think about smoke and mirrors, this kind of fits into the, I guess the manipulation category maybe a little bit.And then also this second example you had, like when maybe leadership announces some organizational changes.Not a lot of details, you know, it's just very vague.And it.It leads to people just having assumptions and, you know, fear or information that's just not helpful.Mm.So that also is kind of an example of, you know, it begins to build distrust in people, like, why.Why are we, you know, why is everything so vague?So I think that's another helpful example.

Speaker B00:30:43

But, yeah, and yeah, I think this goes back to when you have a leader, a very strong leader who wants to do this certain thing, and they are going to get this thing done regardless of any input.So this is kind of like a lack of feedback, a lack of real clarity of what it takes to enact a vision, and also getting the people on board that are working for you, working with you when you say, hey, we're going to do this thing.And there's some.The people who execute and are like, okay, well, have you thought about this issue?Have you thought about that issue?And sometimes I think leaders don't realize that they're scared of their vision not coming true.And that's why sometimes they want to shut down different feedback channels, because then it might kill their dream.And I don't know that it necessarily that these channels of feedback or that these questions are dream killers.I think it's their questions of, okay, how are we going to get this done?Especially if you have someone on your team who consistently helps you get your vision accomplished.I think they.That those are invaluable people.If they've been working with you and for you and doing the things and they have serious questions, then shutting down that feedback is.It's not conducive for an environment that can thrive or.Or for refinement of your vision.

Speaker A00:32:50

Yeah.And I, I think that's something important for people to look at because again, it depends on the leader.But a good leader would take that and look at that and say, this person bringing this feedback is someone who produces high for the company and does well, does the work well.We don't have issues.So they're not bringing up this concern or question based out of, like, they're just disgruntled or they're not producing well, so they just always want to complain.Like, you have to look at the person's character and say, okay, this is somebody who's invested a lot in this company, has helped this company succeed very well.So why, you know, why are they bringing this up?They're must be a legitimate reason for this that I need to look at.And I think that's important because I would say, you know, as I've been walking through this, you know, through the last however many months it's been.One of the things I've noticed is that, like, the mentors and people closest to me are the kind of people that do not think the way I do.They don't always agree with me.And that makes.That makes for making me a better person.Because if I just always surround myself with yes people, then I'm not gonna grow, I'm not gonna get better.I'm gonna stay in stagnant because they're just going to.They're just going to agree with where I'm at, and they're not going to see, this is where you need to be, and this is what I encourage you to change or grow in.They're just gonna always be like, yo, you're doing so great.You're such a great person.They're just gonna stroke your ego.And that makes for bad, bad leadership.Yeah, like, if.And that's one thing I always look at now is like, if someone's in a leadership position, are they.This is even one of the things I asked our pastors when we were getting ready to become partners at the new church almost two years ago.One of the things I directly asked them, I was like, look, when you guys sit down in leadership meetings with the elders, do you guys always agree?And the pastor just laughed because he thought it was so funny.And he's just like, there's.I don't remember his exact wording, but basically he's like, no, we don't.Yeah, we fight a lot in the meetings.Like, in a good way.Like, we all.We all disagree on a lot of things.And for me, that was a huge thing because.And we've noticed this in their leadership because of those things.Like, if.If you're surrounding yourself with people who disagree with you, you're gonna be a more healthy leader overall.And the fact that you're surrounding yourself with people who don't agree, it doesn't mean those people don't love you and care about you.Like the people who disagree with you, if they're doing it in the right way, are the people.Like we've, we're even told this in scripture, right?Like the people that come to you lovingly and say, I see this thing that needs changed or worked on, those are the people who have the character to care enough about you to see you grow and change.So that's huge.

Speaker B00:36:09

And, and I think you just, you just explained how I define.How I personally define toxic people or non toxic people.If I see something that is an issue with someone and I go to that person in loving care and say, hey, this is an issue.Like, we all have issues.Let's just start right there.Yeah, everybody got issues.

Speaker A00:36:44

As you heard at the beginning of.

Speaker B00:36:46

Us talking through some of that, our marriage has issues.The problem is not the issues.The problem is how are the issues addressed or not addressed.And that can, that can come in so many different ways.But for example, a toxic person, in my mind, if I address an issue and there is not change, there is not repentance, if you will, if you want to use like a spiritual term, or there's not a change in behavior, a really, like, recognizing, oh, I am really putting people out when I act this way.And in like a smidgen of humility, there's like, I probably should not do this anymore if I want to live and operate in a world where it doesn't all revolve around me.Yeah.When you address the issue, how is that handled?Is there change?Is there movement?Even the slightest bit of movement?That person probably isn't toxic.Now.Are they going to be like one of your most favorite people?Probably not.But that's the world we live in now.When you address an issue and there's no change, there's no movement, and there's even like deflection or distraction that may be an indication that this person is not a healthy individual.And they have, they have no desire whatsoever to change.In fact, they want everyone to tell them that they're lovely while they're sitting in their own poop.

Speaker A00:38:44

Yeah, that's a clip right there for sure.Oh, sitting that one for a little bit.

Speaker B00:38:55

Yeah, I also.Well, to make it, to make it nicer.So as, as we're talking, I love to work in the yard.And I'm thinking about all these gardening metaphors of right now I'm building this, this terrace kind of thing in our backyard to help with the erosion.And part of what I have to do to help with the erosion is I have to kind of dig and cut away some of the hill that has been eroded so that I can reinforce it and refine it.That digging and that cutting isn't destruction.It's to reinforce and, and make it better, build it better.

Speaker A00:39:35

It's putting up a boundary.Which we could get into that if you wanted to.

Speaker B00:39:41

Right?Yeah.

Speaker A00:39:42

Which I think we might actually have that in some of our notes.But.Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good.That's a good illustration of that.Man.This whole time we've been defined, kind of defining what this looks like.Before we kind of talk through some other things.Next we're going to talk about why people stay.But I want to pose some questions that we kind of thought through to help people think through patterns of a toxic environment.We don't necessarily have to go through all these.We can, you know, we'll list, we'll list these in the notes of the show description so you can access these.But just some of the ones we thought through.For instance, what type of response do you receive when bringing up a concern?Is it avoidance, aggression, silence, humor, withdrawal, control, etc?So that's one thing we thought was important to pay attention to is, you know, how does someone respond when you bring up a legitimate concern?You know, so that, that's an important one.

Speaker B00:40:46

And I, I kind of want to add one instance doesn't make a pattern.

Speaker A00:40:53

Yeah.

Speaker B00:40:55

And also someone's denial doesn't make that reality, like, different because.Yeah, some people are very good at manipulating others.The very definition of manipulation means you don't know you're being manipulated.

Speaker A00:41:12

Right.

Speaker B00:41:12

So you really have to kind of keep a track record of this happened, then this happened, this happened, then this happened.And what you're looking for is a pattern.

Speaker A00:41:24

Yeah, yeah, that's a good distinction there.

Speaker B00:41:26

Yeah.

Speaker A00:41:28

Another one to think through what behaviors become normalized in unhealthy cultures.For instance, favoritism, Lack of transparency.Hypocrisy.

Speaker B00:41:38

Yeah, favoritism.Favoritism.I like to kind of explain this a little bit.

Speaker A00:41:44

Yeah.I just was.I don't know if you're going the same direction that I was just thinking,.

Speaker B00:41:47

But if you have all the people around you that make you feel good, that's favoritism.

Speaker A00:41:57

I don't know if we were planning on getting into this later, but since we brought it up, I want to address it.We, we say the word favoritism, but I want to, I want to kind of talk through sometimes that is cloaked in a different word.And this is.This happens especially in like Christian Work environments may maybe some in, like.

Speaker B00:42:23

Do tell.You've piqued my curiosity.

Speaker A00:42:26

Okay.

Speaker B00:42:26

Where are you going with this?

Speaker A00:42:27

We say favoritism, which is.It's kind of easy to navigate that.Like, Right.Like, you see a situation, you're like that.That manager, whoever's definitely showing favoritism there.But the one thing I've noticed, and I figured out that we had to talk through when I was processing some of this is a lot of times it's cloaked in very, like, religious language that is manipulative as well.So, for instance, let's say.Let's say you have someone at.At the job who is just underperforming.They're losing the company money, they're making a lot of mistakes that just are not being addressed or corrected.And let's say, you know, you go to a manager about that or whoever and you're just like, hey, you know, I've noticed this.This is causing some issues like, how can we address this and fix it and get better if it is cloaked in language that says, I.This person's like, I get it.If it's a new person and they're trying to learn the process.But after a while, if this, if the language is still being used, you'll hear, we just need to show that person grace, which is religious language that is more often than not used as manipulation in these situations.Because if that's all that you're always being told after constant reminders like, this is still an issue, like, how do we fix this?Oh, I'll talk to them.You need to just show them grace.Yet if you make a mistake and you're met with aggression, you're.Let's say you're.Maybe you're told that they're going to take money out of your paycheck to cover that mistake, whereas someone else is not held to that same standard.That's not showing people grace.That's favoritism based on.We don't have to get into the details, but that's.That's an example of favoritism.

Speaker B00:44:23

Yes.Not a consistent way of addressing behaviors across the.The board.

Speaker A00:44:30

Yeah, there's no, there's no measure of accountability or standard of this is what you have to do for this job.It's just cloaked in vagueness.And.Yeah, so that's.That I think that's something good for people to realize is like.

Speaker B00:44:48

And then my.And then maybe this is chasing another rabbit.But my question then is why all the vagueness?Why the inconsistency yeah, like, don't we.Don't we want a standard of quality?And why.Why treat some people this way and not the other?And then I think that's what leads me back to who is benefiting by keeping a person around that just is not doing the job.

Speaker A00:45:20

Yeah.

Speaker B00:45:21

And oftentimes what I have seen is that individual does not stand up to the issues or does not bring up issues, whereas other people who are getting the job done usually are the ones who are also bringing up issues because they are realizing there are issues because they're actually performing the work and they're seeing what is breaking down.

Speaker A00:45:53

Yeah.Yeah.And I think.Yeah, that's definitely important.I.Okay, I know.I know I said we weren't going to get into, like, specifics, but this one's kind of hard.It's not necessarily specific.Okay.Anyways, we can get.

Speaker B00:46:11

We can get into specifics.It wasn't like a black or white thing.

Speaker A00:46:14

Well, this fits really well into what we're talking about with thinking through patterns of a toxic environment, for instance.So let's.For instance, there was a lot of times where because of my role as a manager, I was very involved in all the different departments, and I just, like, had.I just have an overall business mindset where I think of things as a whole.Once I start to learn everything, I try to see the big picture of, like, how everything's running and not just like my.My department, for instance.And there was a lot of times.

Speaker B00:46:49

Where they all connect.

Speaker A00:46:51

Yeah.How they connect.How do we make them more efficient to make the business run better?And there was a.There were some times where I would have conversations with, you know, another manager who's kind of on the same level as me or one or two of the other managers, and we talk about things.We were seeing things that needed addressed maybe in our, you know, weekly meetings.And sometimes they'd be really worked up about things and I'd be like, okay, well, let's just talk about it at the meeting and work through this.And then come meeting time.

Speaker B00:47:25

Crickets.

Speaker A00:47:26

Yeah, they would.The.The owner and general manager would ask for feedback and on, you know, any issues happening, and none of them would say anything.

Speaker B00:47:37

They were setting you up.

Speaker A00:47:39

And so if.Well, I shouldn't.

Speaker B00:47:42

I shouldn't laugh, but.

Speaker A00:47:44

Well, here's the thing, though.

Speaker B00:47:45

Someone who really wanted the business to thrive, like, they're just kind of like.But they.But they didn't want to be the ones to bring it up, because if you have a toxic manager, they know all the Pressure is going to come on you.They didn't want the pressure.

Speaker A00:48:04

Yeah.And here's the thing too.Like, if it was something that I had.We had talked about prior to a meeting and I wasn't, like, I didn't really have a lot of information going into it.Like, I usually didn't bring it up, but if it was something I.That was.Talked to me about that I was also noticing, then I would bring it up because it's something I'm directly involved in that I want to think through.But yeah, we'd get to the weekly meetings and nobody would say anything or have feedback.But I, like, I'm just someone who, like, I just cut to the chase.Even though I'm more introverted.Like, I'm going to, like, if you open up the floor to talk about that stuff, I'm going to bring stuff up because I care enough to bring that up.

Speaker B00:48:44

You want it to work.

Speaker A00:48:46

So then what ended up happening was over time, people would complain about things and issues.I would bring up the stuff that directly affected my department and the people I managed to.But over time, it became this thing to now where the owner and general manager started painting a picture about me that I was toxic and aggressive.And there's no way that those problems were occurring in their business because I was the only person bringing them up.

Speaker B00:49:16

Right.

Speaker A00:49:16

So now I.Now I look like I'm an idiot and I'm just like causing problems because other people, you know, they want to talk about stuff but not have the backbone and the character to also address them in front of people above them.And whether that was because of their own character or so.So here's the thing.I can't.That could be the issue, but it could also be an issue of fear.Like we talked about this earlier, like a control fear issue.If they're fearful for their own jobs and they know that bringing stuff up as concerns.

Speaker B00:49:55

Right.

Speaker A00:49:55

Possibly puts them in jeopardy.

Speaker B00:49:58

Yeah.

Speaker A00:49:58

Because you'll have also be an issue.

Speaker B00:50:00

There'll be retaliation.

Speaker A00:50:02

Right.

Speaker B00:50:02

For bringing issues up.

Speaker A00:50:03

Yeah.Which is what I experienced in the end.But yeah.Yeah.So.

Speaker B00:50:08

And maybe this brings up another way to understand or to identify if you're in a toxic environment or not.Are the people getting the work done, leaving?

Speaker A00:50:23

Yeah.Are.Yeah.That.Are the people.Yeah.That's another big thing.

Speaker B00:50:29

Am I surrounded by a bunch of inefficient people who just come in, go home, and we just keep doing the same thing and nothing changes?That's the definition of insanity.

Speaker A00:50:47

Yeah.Yeah.And we'll get into to some of that.Like.Yeah, when we talk about.So we.Anyways, we had some other questions, but we'll definitely include those in the notes to think through.I think we've hit.We've hit a lot of those.

Speaker B00:51:02

Sorry, I didn't mean to distract you.

Speaker A00:51:04

It just pretty well.Yeah.So.Okay, let's.Let's talk about why people stay, because I think it's important to think through some of this.This is not just a black and white issue that is easy to navigate.There are a lot of different factors that go into this.

Speaker B00:51:24

Yeah.

Speaker A00:51:25

And so we've tried to kind of, as we're going through this, highlight the things that.And.

Speaker B00:51:30

And I really.I want to start off by saying, if you decide to stay, I don't feel like there should be any judgment or feel like.Because people stay for a lot of different reasons, and those reasons are valid to them.This is.This is where you have to have conversations with other people who know you well, have some honest conversations and.And know all of the.The different situations in your life.And it's just.This is just not like, should I stay or should I go and just like, you know, head out?Because.Yeah, I mean, yeah, we can talk more about that.

Speaker A00:52:15

But yeah, and here.Well, here's the other piece of that is you cannot convince people to leave.

Speaker B00:52:20

Right.

Speaker A00:52:21

So if someone does come to you who's experiencing these kind of things, they have to figure it out on their own.

Speaker B00:52:27

Right.

Speaker A00:52:27

You can present some of these things to them to think through.

Speaker B00:52:32

And sometimes the struggle of figuring that out solidifies more how.How they.You're gonna have to edit this part.

Speaker A00:52:46

Well, as you're thinking through that, I will say this, like, as an example, like, so we've had friends of ours, you know, who.You and I left a toxic situation that they were still in.They.They helped us navigate that very well.

Speaker B00:53:04

In that toxic situation that they decided to stay.

Speaker A00:53:08

Yes.

Speaker B00:53:08

And they decided to stay to help people.

Speaker A00:53:12

Right.

Speaker B00:53:13

In.In this toxic situation.

Speaker A00:53:16

Yes.And I'm sure there was times maybe they were frustrated with us and maybe we were frustrated with them.

Speaker B00:53:23

Yeah.

Speaker A00:53:23

But like, we could.Eventually they came to the realization that they couldn't.They just couldn't stay either.Like, it became too much.

Speaker B00:53:31

Well, I think they ran out of people who wanted to figure out if they should stay or go.

Speaker A00:53:38

Maybe.But all that to say, yes, we don't want people to feel judged for staying.And people who are helping people through those situations don't get overwhelmed and frustrated because people are staying.Because in the end.Like, you gotta figure it out for yourself.

Speaker B00:53:57

Well, and you will get frustrated and you will judge others.If you're helping someone walk through that and you will be like, why in the world are they still there?

Speaker A00:54:08

Especially when you've walked through it yourself and you're so passionate about it, it's hard not to get frustrated.

Speaker B00:54:12

Right.And I think we just have to slow down and just be patient and then just remember that it's.It is a process.And I think that's where I was going with that before when I was talking is we are all on our own journey.And this is.I'm gonna give another dig into you changing your name of your thing.You don't need to change the name of your podcast.We're all on a journey.Do you like that?

Speaker A00:54:46

Yes.That wasn't the part of the podcast name that I was struggling with, but yes.

Speaker B00:54:53

Okay.Yeah.Anyway, so, yeah, everyone is on their own journey.And when, when you wrestle with your.Your own situation, you.You are becoming stronger in that and, and us wanting to fix people too soon, sometimes they're just, they're still building up that muscle really, to just kind of like completely free.

Speaker A00:55:18

Yeah, yeah.There's a, there's a phrase I often say that people laugh at that ties to this.Well, and I always say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make a drink because that's drowning.That's waterboarding.So you cannot, you cannot force people to leave.Let them figure it out on their own.So some examples of reasons we thought of why people stay.Financial pressure, fear of the unknown.Fear nothing will be different elsewhere.You hope things will change, which we just talked about.This is a tough one.Oftentimes loyalty or your identity is tied to the job, which I think sometimes is more difficult for men than it is for women because men often wrap up their identities in their work.So I know that's definitely a hard one for men.And then faith driven thinking, maybe I'm supposed to be here.Yeah.Like we also talked about, like, I'm going to reach these people.

Speaker B00:56:20

Yeah.I think there's a commonality with a lot of these.And again, no judgment, but there's a common theme of fear, the financial pressure.Sometimes you.You are in a situation where you have looked for other jobs or you have looked for another place to go and you have to have income and God just has not made a way for you to get out of this particular situation.And that is what I would say a very real fear.Being able to provide for your family, there's healthy fears, but there's also fears that I think we give too much credit.For example, fear of the unknown.If we kept the same, the same, the same because we don't know what lies on the other side, then that is not a healthy fear that pushes us and moves us towards growth.Yes, it'll be hard to change situations.It'll be hard to detach from things that you know and to go to something that is unfamiliar.But oftentimes you find blessings in that other situation or in the moving of the situations that you never would have realized had you not detached yourself or you.You had not tried to do something new.That's.That's resilience right there is.Is building that muscle of, hey, I'm going to try something different.I'm gonna push through the pain and, and just see what's on the other side.I'm just gonna be curious about this and I'm not gonna let fear control me.

Speaker A00:58:19

Yeah, for sure.And I think so.Yeah.A lot of times I think we confuse being faithful with being stuck.And that's an important distinction to make because along the lines of what you were just saying, like, there's a fear of just stepping out and like, removing yourself from that, let's say, job before you find something else to financially sustain your situation.So sometimes we confuse those lines of like, I'm being faithful, but it's really, you're stuck.And there.Regardless of what some people said to me during this time, there's nowhere in scripture where God commands you to stay in that toxic situation.There's moments we're called to be faithful in suffering, which we're also going to address here in a little bit.But if this situation, regardless of what it is, is eroding you, there is nothing commanding you to stay there.And I think sometimes our fear of staying before we find something else sustainable is the very thing that keeps us from thriving.Because sometimes it could be that God just wants us to step out in faith from that situation and get ourselves healed.And during that step of faith to remove ourselves from that toxic situation is when.When God will step in and say, you know, I was waiting for that step of faith, and this is what is next, what I have next for you.And that's another thing that's hard too, because, you know, you have to navigate, should I stay or should I go?Like you said earlier.

Speaker B01:00:03

Right, right.And.And the importance of, of surrounding yourself with a good community that helps you think through these things in a critically, like important way.And sometimes it doesn't.You know, we want a very clear answer.We want to know what we don't know, and we just want it to be a lot easier than it actually is.And oftentimes it's not.Like, I want to use the biblical example of when Christ tells his disciples to go into all the world, and he's talking about, if you go into a town and they reject you, then shake the dust and move on.And we want it to kind of be like that clear.And maybe it is that clear.Yeah, maybe it is.Or.Or maybe we genuinely just need to wrestle with.And sometimes in the wrestling, we.We.We just.We're going to get stronger.Either way, God's going to do what God's going to do.And I want to go back to something that we talked about, the loyalty and the identity tied to a job.And I want to bring up this aspect that I think can sometimes be used against people, especially when you're in a toxic environment, is when there are a group of people, and usually they're in leadership, that have this narrative of we're the best employer or we're the best organization.And so they have instilled this fear of things being worse outside of the organization.So going back to.

Speaker A01:02:10

Yeah, like, the grass is not greener on the other side.

Speaker B01:02:13

Right.Going back to when you and I were deciding to remove ourselves from a.A toxic church, there was this narrative there of like, we're the best.We're the best.You know, and then as we are talking to people within and without that church, because we needed both sides, we realized, like, hey, once you kind of get out of the bubble, there is a whole different narrative, in fact, a completely opposite narrative from when you're in that bubble.And like, you know, there's that.There's that phrase of like, you know, drink the Kool Aid.

Speaker A01:02:59

Yeah.

Speaker B01:03:00

And.

Speaker A01:03:01

Or.Or if the organization has their own language that nobody else outside of that knows, like, that's another.

Speaker B01:03:09

Yeah, that.That in and of itself is like, kind of an indicator of people trying to control you with the identity of being attached to that organization or to that job.We're the best.We're the best.We're the best.Those others.Those others.Those others.There's.There's like this us and them mentality, and then you get out of it and you talk to people outside of it, and people are like, like, no, there's.I'm doing great.I'm doing fine.

Speaker A01:03:42

Yeah, well.And underneath that.Underneath that idea of we're the best is I. I was thinking of this as you said that, like, there's this idea that's unspoken that they are basically saying to you, you are nothing without us, and if you leave, who are you going to be if you leave us?Because we're the best.So they're banking on the belief that they've made you, they've created what you are, and that you cannot function without them.

Speaker B01:04:16

They're your God.Yeah, yeah.Which all the more reason to get away from them because they are trying to insert themselves as the role of God in your life.And when you and I were walking through, trying to leave or go, I even said, you know, I was very honest about, you know, the things that I was afraid of, because I felt like if I don't speak the things that I am afraid of, then it's just going to fester.And.And I said at one point, I was like, you know, they've.They've made this whole thing of, like, they have all the best marriages, and people that have left have been because they couldn't get their marriage.Like, there was this whole narrative of people that leave their marriages fall apart.And like, we had just gotten married and it was like, oh, my gosh, we're going to get divorced if we leave.And look at us.We're doing great.

Speaker A01:05:19

Yeah.Better, I would say.Right.

Speaker B01:05:22

Because we're not dependent on an organization, on whether we survive.We're actually dependent on God.

Speaker A01:05:34

Yeah, well.And I mean, that even speaks to some of the categories we talked about, because in the process of that, some of those people were friend.Friends that we knew, like you had known, you know, better the wife better than I knew the husband.And.And then come to find out it was just a manipulation story.And it wasn't because their marriage was falling apart.It was because they were trying to cause the marriage to fall apart by coming between the husband and wife.And so, yeah, there's just so much.There's this.That's why this is not just black and white.

Speaker B01:06:13

It's not just black and white.And I think I mentioned this earlier.People saying what the reality is doesn't make it real.Real.But going back to why, why people stay, again, there's a commonality of fear, and I think it's important to name those fears in a group of healthy individuals.

Speaker A01:06:36

Yeah, for sure.Before we move on to the next idea here, I kind of want to talk about when we think of people staying, we.We talked a little bit about it being like, some people stay as a mission field to.To continue to try to help influence change.So I want to talk about that faith tension a little bit in the idea of it being a mission field and just thinking through some wisdom in that.And so the.The thing I want to differentiate is, yes, we are called to love people.Yes, growth can happen in hard places.But.But also not every environment is meant to be endured long term.And sometimes even stain can enable the dysfunction even more.And so that's something to think through.

Speaker B01:07:26

Yeah.And I wanted to talk about this, and I think this is an important aspect to think through on whether you're thinking through staying or going.Who do you want to be?Like, there.There's this saying in the recovery world of.Of show me your friends and I'll show you your future.And I think it's the same thing with who we work with and who we work for.Show me your leaders, and I can show you what type of leader you will become.We're just not as immune or above it as we think we are.And some situations way, way, way long ago, back in another lifetime, it feels like that I left was because I didn't want to become like the leaders that I had to follow.So I guess you could say it like this.You can stay.If you.If you really feel called within that organization to.To try to make the changes that you can.Yeah, you can stay.I think a very sobering question to ask yourself is, can you stay and not become toxic yourself?

Speaker A01:08:59

Yeah, that's.That's very huge.Yeah.And that's a.That's tough because I'm.I thinking of my own situation.Like, Norm, normally in a healthy job, since we're on topic of job, but let's just say an environment.In a healthy environment, whether it's a job or something else, let's say if it's outside of the home, you come home.If it's a healthy environment, you're not gonna bring that home with you in the sense that, like, you're gonna talk about your day, you're gonna talk about how work was, but those behaviors and patterns, like, you're gonna work is work.You're gonna leave it there in that aspect.But I. I noticed that there was patterns and behaviors that I was bringing home that were just becoming toxic between us.And I was like.

Speaker B01:09:59

And I wasn't having it.

Speaker A01:10:01

Yeah.And I wasn't realizing it.And I was like, that's.

Speaker B01:10:04

We ain't doing this.

Speaker A01:10:06

Yeah.And that's when it's probably a sign it's time to leave.

Speaker B01:10:13

Yeah.

Speaker A01:10:13

If it's coming to that point.

Speaker B01:10:15

Yeah.

Speaker A01:10:16

And also, you kind of have to ask yourself what's more important in the sense of, like, if you're fearful of the.The money aspect of not having something else in line.

Speaker B01:10:28

Yeah.

Speaker A01:10:28

Is that more important to you than being in a healthy place?That if you're bringing toxic stuff home with you, that could cause more issues that are more serious than the financial side of it?And I think that's a tough thing to think through, but it's definitely an important aspect of it.

Speaker B01:10:49

It is.And then I also want to be very respect, respectful, and sensitive to those who don't have other choices financially and.And just be, like, very mindful that if you really have no other place to go, you know, it's toxic.You.You have looked for another way out, and God just has not provided another way out.God will see you through.Like, it's.It's not ideal.Right.But if.If there is no other option, greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world, and he will see you through that season.

Speaker A01:11:34

Yeah, exactly.And.Yeah.Which transitions us to the idea of the signs that it might be time to leave.So people can just kind of think through, like, you know, what does this look like?So some things we thought of were declining health.

Speaker B01:11:56

Yeah.

Speaker A01:11:56

Constant anxiety, no pathways for change.When you bring up, you know, issues, there's a lack of accountability, structure, and you losing your sense of self.I think these are some of the main ones that people really do struggle through and encounter when they're in these situations.

Speaker B01:12:16

Yeah.And all of those go back to that.That term we were using of erosion.

Speaker A01:12:24

Yeah.

Speaker B01:12:25

There's.There's just a.A shrinking of.Of yourself.There's.It's.It's not thriving, it's not flourishing.It's dying.

Speaker A01:12:39

Yeah.For sure.And.Yeah.Just thinking through that, like, if.When people are thinking through these signs that it's time to leave and whether or not they should stay, I think something important to think about is if stain requires you to shrink, stay silent or ignore the harm.Like you just said, that's not growth, that's erosion.And if you're finding yourself in that place where you're being eroded, that's, you know, even if it's a reason we didn't even list, that's probably sign that it's time to leave.Because if you're in that, like you were talking about the leadership structure, if you're in that type of position and you're not with leaders who are building you up and trying to bring you up into a place to grow into who you are as a leader and as a worker then.And it's more of like suppressing you out of fear of who you might become.That's, that's eroding you as a person and your value that you can bring to that situation.

Speaker B01:13:51

Yeah.And it's not giving someone hope for change because that's the gospel Right there is that God, God gives us hope and God brings change.It's not dependent on, you know, one situation or one person and speaking death over someone doing a different circumstance.That's.That's not the gospel.

Speaker A01:14:20

Yeah.I'm also kind of thinking through.So this idea of lack of accountability.I kind of want to, I kind of want to hang on this for a second because this is another thing I encountered where I think it's important to think through this distinction because depending on your level within an organization or environment, this is hard to think through because we think about lack of accountability and people having accountability.But if it's not your business, there's certain things you can't do in terms of change.Right.So I'm thinking through this specifically because in my situation I encountered there was situations I had brought up that had to do with accountability in terms of.Back to that category of was it personal well being or something.So you think through people's health, you know, breaks, stuff like that.Just the basics that you expect to be treated in a, in a good way.So.Yeah.So I'm thinking through this because specifically in my situation, it came to a point where I, I did not, I probably should have, but did not decide to leave when I should have.And it came down to me being fired over some things that were not the reasons I was actually getting fired for anyways.And I was told in that conversation that I can't have you ruin the culture here because we are on track to make the most money God has ever allowed this company to make.And I can't.You have a.This is my company and I can't have you affect that.And right there told me like that's.So that's the difference between accountability and like a conversation where you hear something like that, that is someone who does not want to be accountable.It's about, it's about the money and you don't want anything to affect.

Speaker B01:16:36

Yeah.

Speaker A01:16:37

What is happening and that, that, that portrays someone who does not want to be accountable in the sense that yes, it's not my business, but you put me in a trusted position of management.And if I see things that I think are an issue, like we should have the space to bring that up and address them.And this was not, this is not just preference stuff like these.Some of these situations were situations where laws were.There was gray lines being crossed with legal things, like we could have had somebody been killed over safety issues.And me bringing that up again, I was toxic and aggressive and caring about whether or not someone got killed on the job.

Speaker B01:17:25

Yeah.

Speaker A01:17:27

And I also want to distinguish.So that has a lot to do with.When you think about accountability.That's kind of something to think through, but also the fact that, like, growth does not equal health.

Speaker B01:17:40

Oh, yeah.Financial growth.

Speaker A01:17:42

Yes.

Speaker B01:17:43

Numerical growth, whatever it is, whatever that looks like.Yeah.

Speaker A01:17:46

So, I mean, cancer grows.That can grow at an enormous rate, but that doesn't mean it's healthy.Right.Like, it, Cancer just attaches itself to everything and destroys it.

Speaker B01:17:56

I mean, that's a good point.

Speaker A01:17:58

So I, I don't know.I'm just thinking through that.When I, when we mentioned like, like lack of accountability and how you navigate, like, what that means versus.

Speaker B01:18:08

Yeah.And you also, you also brought up something that kind of like, really spoke to me.There's, there's a point in your life, in this, in this organization where you're going to have a conversation and this conversation is going to be like a major red flag and you're, you're either going to dismiss it or you're.That's going to be like your breaking point.And that's going to be like.They just told me exactly that this is probably the most honest conversation that we've ever had right here.

Speaker A01:18:48

Yeah.

Speaker B01:18:49

And that, that is it right there where we're like, oh, now I see now they've just revealed the true heart of the matter.For him, it was about money.And he felt like the way that he was going to run his organization was making him money.And it was.Yeah.

Speaker A01:19:20

Yeah.

Speaker B01:19:21

And I, I think you.And I think there's.There's more things in life than money.

Speaker A01:19:25

Yeah.Yeah.Money is not health.

Speaker B01:19:29

Yeah.

Speaker A01:19:29

And we've come to realize a lot of that through this situation.Some others as well.I, I made a note of this, like, later in the, in my notes, but since we're talking about now, just bring it up.Like if you get to that point where you don't voluntarily leave and the, the tables are just turned on you being.I want, I want people to note it know this, that being fired for not thinking the way they think in a toxic environment is not an Insult.It's a compliment.And that's something you always kept bringing up to me as I was struggling through some of this.Is like, you should take it as a compliment.

Speaker B01:20:10

Yeah.

Speaker A01:20:10

That you were not part of that toxic culture.

Speaker B01:20:14

Yeah.Yeah.And I think, I feel like that's whether you're in a toxic environment or maybe you're walking.So walking with someone along alongside of them is reminding them of those truths.Of, like, I know you.You are not toxic.When I, like, these are the patterns that I see in you when.When I have an issue with you and I address it.You want to change because you want to grow.That is not toxic.That is simply just being broken and fixing what's broken.And again, going back to the.The majority of people, like, who.Who's the majority of people that I'm surrounded by in this environment, are most of them just dysfunctional, then I'm probably in a dysfunctional environment.If I'm being rejected or looked down upon for being a decent person and being a good person and trying to fix things, it's actually a compliment that I'm not like them.

Speaker A01:21:29

Yeah.And the funny thing about this, I just thought about this when we were often talking about joking about being me, being called those things.You're like.You would often laugh and you'd be like, I'm more likely to be called those things than you are.Right.And yeah.So, yeah, that was something we often laughed about.Like the way I approach people, you were probably.

Speaker B01:21:55

You are literally like, you are gentle Ben.And.And I mean, if I'd have been working there, that place would have been burnt down.

Speaker A01:22:05

Might have been some legal stuff involved.

Speaker B01:22:10

They would have seen toxic.

Speaker A01:22:14

Oh, goodness.You got to laugh because sometimes this stuff is.It can be so overwhelming.You have to laugh at the first funny stuff.That is just like, you do.

Speaker B01:22:24

You do.

Speaker A01:22:24

Yeah.

Speaker B01:22:25

Yeah.Because.Because they.The.At some point, they have to change the narrative if they don't want to change and they try to exchange your reality.

Speaker A01:22:36

Yeah.All right.So I think.I think that's a good place to land as far as signs it might be time to leave again.For each of these categories, we'll kind of put in the notes, questions to think through for people.But we kind of talked through this, I guess, reasons people stay.But if you stay.Some practice.Let's talk through some practical wisdom for people who decide to stay.

Speaker B01:23:02

Yeah.If.If you are called to stay, if you've worked this out with fear and trembling and you're called to stay, or there you have Sought other measures to get out.And.And there's just not another way at that point in time, which was kind of your situation, too.Like, I don't.Like, I never wanted you to feel bad for staying.I know a lot of times I was like, you know, have you looked at another job?Have you looked at another job?And again, it's a process.But, yes, there were other situations where you were trying to navigate that, and it just.It was an uphill battle.

Speaker A01:23:42

Yeah.And I'm glad you brought that up, because that's important as well.Because that's some of the other factors.Like, because I talked a lot about it and how horrible the situation was,.

Speaker B01:23:56

But I was like, you're wasting too much time talking about it.

Speaker A01:24:01

Yeah, that's part of it.

Speaker B01:24:02

You're spending your energy complaining.

Speaker A01:24:04

Stop talking about it and do something about it.

Speaker B01:24:06

Bend your energy.Energy doing something.

Speaker A01:24:08

Yes.So that is.I do want people to notice that that's part of it.Like, if you're putting all your energy into talking about how bad it is, my question would be, what are you doing to fix that?Like, are you looking for active ways to get out of that situation instead of just it overwhelming you and what you're doing and to where that's all you're thinking about is how bad it is.So that's important for people to think through, is like, what am I doing to.And because you can only control so much, you can only control what you do.So what.What are.What am I doing to help fix that situation now?You know, granted, I also had other hurdles I had to jump through with the job stuff that most people probably don't face.And so, you know, it's just stuff you got to think through.But the reason I want to talk about this, practical wisdom, if people are currently staying, have decided to stay, or are in the process of looking for something else, is because when you're in the middle of it, this is not something most people normally think through, because it gets to the point where it's so overwhelming.This is not something.And people I've talked to about this have been like, oh, that's a good idea.I didn't think about that.And this.This thing in particular, document everything.Yeah, this is important because it's not a lot of people naturally just don't lean towards that idea.And thankfully, we were already in a place where we had walked through this with the previous church we were at, and I.Our mindset was already kind of in that space.And so when I started the moment Everything shifted at this job.I knew right away in my head.I was like, I have to start documenting this stuff so that I have record of things that are happening, conversations to protect myself.

Speaker B01:26:08

Yeah.

Speaker A01:26:08

And it's.It's sad you have to think about that.But if you're in that type of environment, like, nobody is looking out for you.

Speaker B01:26:15

Yeah.And not only that, they're trying to change your reality.

Speaker A01:26:21

Yes.So it's not only something to protect you legally, it's also something to protect your mental health and your state of mind.Because you'll look back and be like,.

Speaker B01:26:30

Was it really that bad?Maybe I was a terrible person.

Speaker A01:26:33

Did I really do this thing?They're saying yes.

Speaker B01:26:36

Yeah.

Speaker A01:26:36

So whether that looks like just journaling it or, you know, dates and times, I will say this, though, I'm not.So there's nothing illegal about documenting things like writing things out that you're experiencing.But I will say, when it comes to, like, the recording stuff.Let me just put that disclaimer in there.Make sure you know what your state laws are before you do that.Because I had to look through that.But it even came to the point where I had to audio record certain conversations to protect myself.

Speaker B01:27:10

Yeah.

Speaker A01:27:11

For those very reasons, legal reasons, and for my own sanity.Be like, I know that didn't happen because I have a recording.Recording of it.

Speaker B01:27:20

Yeah.

Speaker A01:27:21

So that's just something to think through.This is another huge one.Set internal boundaries.Because if you're in this type of toxic environment, they.Your boundaries will be walked all over.And if you don't have boundaries, they, it.They will be pushed.And as soon as you set up boundaries, be ready because you will be met with opposition still.

Speaker B01:27:47

Yeah.

Speaker A01:27:48

But if you set those boundaries, in some ways, those are for your own.

Speaker B01:27:55

Yeah.

Speaker A01:27:55

Your own good.

Speaker B01:27:58

And I don't think we mentioned this in the indicators.It's a toxic environment.But that's probably another indicator is if you put up a boundary and it's pushed.

Speaker A01:28:12

Yeah.So let's give an example of this because just so people can identify, like, what this looks like.So let's say you're being asked to.I get overtime.Happens.I get.There's situations where you have to go above and beyond.But if your boundaries are being pushed, you're being asked to stay, you know, a couple hours over.And you're not.You're already struggling to get a lunch break or some type of break, which I know, again, each state law is different where, you know, certain situations, they don't have to give that to you.But if those type of basic needs aren't being met and you're being asked to do things outside of your scope of work and then you set up a boundary like I'm leaving at the end of my eight hours and what we don't get done during that time, you know, I'll get done tomorrow again.There's, there's times when emergencies come up.I get it.But when every day is an emergency that speaks to a bigger issue happening.Yeah, that.Okay.

Speaker B01:29:16

That we need to fix something else.

Speaker A01:29:18

Needs to be fixed.

Speaker B01:29:18

Yeah, we need to fix something operationally or systematically so that we aren't burning people out on, on 10 and 12 hour shifts.No, no lunch break.You haven't brought up this example, the, the bathroom.I don't know if you want to talk about that.That might be a little too much.

Speaker A01:29:40

But yeah, so I guess, yeah, maybe this is a boundary thing.I don't know.This is also a basic human need thing.So yeah, I guess you don't have.

Speaker B01:29:53

To talk about it if you're not comfortable.

Speaker A01:29:54

But, but I don't know, maybe there are situations where people are encountering this.Sometimes I feel like this is extreme.

Speaker B01:30:01

But, but this is really happening.

Speaker A01:30:04

Yeah, this is actually happening in workplaces.

Speaker B01:30:06

And this is, I think, maybe why I want you to talk about this.Just to normalize it and say like we are living in America and this is happening and it's not.Okay.

Speaker A01:30:18

And this, this was not just happening to me, it was happening to the team member that was under my management.

Speaker B01:30:25

Yeah,.

Speaker A01:30:28

Yeah.So it's a very, it was a very production based environment running a CNC machine.And so money making money depends on things coming off that CNC machine so that it can get through the process to go to customers.But there's some very fine lines you have to walk in that process.Because for instance, we were being told that if the machine ever stopped, there was an underlying threat that we, we would be fired.Right.So the machine always had to be running because we lose money.I get it.But when a program stops, you got to change the table over, you have to clean the table, you have to change out to the next product and you have, There's a whole process and move because there are a thousand pound slabs.You have to be safety oriented.And sometimes me and the other guy, we're having to go find the, go outside of our scope of work and do someone else's job to find the inventory and bring it in.And so there's just a lot of different factors.Right.So you got to change over the table as quickly as possible, you know, which we're doing.Sometimes you got to use the bathroom during the day.Right.And so I had times where I was followed to the bathroom.General manager bangs on the door.Why is the table not running?Like, dude, I'm using the.Using the bathroom.You can wait a second until I come out of the bathroom, like exceed.It seems extreme, but.And some people might not believe that that, that happens.But yeah, that was something I ran into where it's.You're so focused on production that you don't.You can't meet the basic needs of the.The human beings working for you.And production is more important than.Than the people you're going to lose.People.The people who actually make your business effective.Yeah.Yeah.So I don't know what else you were wanting me to say about that, but.

Speaker B01:32:22

Well, no, I'm just, I'm just saying I. I feel like that is a basic boundary that everyone should have to be able to use the bathroom without interruption.

Speaker A01:32:36

Yeah.

Speaker B01:32:37

Like a normal bathroom break.

Speaker A01:32:39

Yeah.Not.Not managers sitting in the bathroom 30 minutes to an hour watching YouTube videos.

Speaker B01:32:45

Right.Yeah.I mean, that's obviously inappropriate, but normal everyday bio breaks, Right?

Speaker A01:32:53

Yeah.It seems extreme, but there it ha.It's happening.

Speaker B01:32:59

It.

Speaker A01:32:59

Right.It happens.

Speaker B01:33:00

It does happen.

Speaker A01:33:02

How do you navigate that?That's what we're trying to help people figure.

Speaker B01:33:05

Right.It's okay to have boundaries.

Speaker A01:33:09

Yeah.

Speaker B01:33:09

It's okay to need to use the bathroom.

Speaker A01:33:11

Well, and like you said, like a question to ask yourself is, if I set a boundary, how is that boundary being met?

Speaker B01:33:19

Yeah.

Speaker A01:33:20

With opposition or with respect.Right.

Speaker B01:33:23

Yeah.

Speaker A01:33:23

And that's not, that's.Those are not extreme boundaries of that are out of this world.Like someone would ask, why are you setting that boundary?Right.Those are basic human need boundaries.

Speaker B01:33:35

But when you're in an environment like that, you do have to ask that question.

Speaker A01:33:41

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker B01:33:43

Is this an appropriate boundary?

Speaker A01:33:44

Yeah.

Speaker B01:33:46

Which is why I'm glad that you talked about it.Because when, when your own boundaries have been eroded so much, it just, just.It becomes a normal thing where it's like.It's not okay to go to the bathroom.Right now I have to wait to use the bathroom.

Speaker A01:34:04

Yeah.

Speaker B01:34:06

Or wear a diaper.

Speaker A01:34:08

I didn't.I never thought about that.It's a good point.But also like, like we've talked about this already.Seeking outside support.So even in the boundary aspect, like you're thinking of setting this boundary.Seek outside support from somebody not toxic and bounce the ideas off of them.Like, hey, is this, is this a boundary I should consider?Like, am I. Yeah.You know, am I crazy for thinking this?And just get people get outside support.Right.So that's important as well, I think.Also detaching your identity from the job.We've talked a lot about identity.That's hard to do sometimes because that can really have a huge effect on your identity.And then also I think to knowing.Knowing that our, our peace comes from knowing who is in control.Right.So that's also tied to identity as well.Knowing that everything's going to be okay.Like, if I leave this situation, things are still going to be okay.Like God promises to take care of us.

Speaker B01:35:17

Yeah.

Speaker A01:35:18

And I forget the passage off top of my head, but the passage that talks about the birds and the lilies of the field and like the fact that God even cares about those things, you know, he's going to provide for us.And sometimes our identity even becomes wrapped up in the provision of money.Right.So that it's all tied to that fear aspect that you mentioned earlier.And I think it's all something you have to, to think about.

Speaker B01:35:45

Yeah.

Speaker A01:35:52

So we've, I think we've already, we've really talked about if you decide to leave.I think so.I don't think we need to rehash that too much unless there's anything you want to add to that idea.Because I think again, I think it's important to know, like, if you decide to leave on your own terms, it's not failure.

Speaker B01:36:17

Yeah.

Speaker A01:36:18

Sometimes it's obedience to what God is calling you to.

Speaker B01:36:24

Yes.Especially if, Maybe.Let's talk maybe more about organizations or, or even like a church, you know, because this could, this could apply to a lot of different contexts.Say, say, for example, leaving and going to another church.And sometimes there's this negative connotation of doing that.And there again, working this out with healthy people who, who give you solid pushback and don't disagree with everything that you're saying.The difference between staying in a hard context and staying in an environment that is actually unhealthy, there's, there's just different aspects of it.And leaving an unhealthy situation, sometimes you'll get pushback, especially from people that are still in that organization.And I think if you have really sought good counsel and you have decided to leave with.You feel like God's blessing, then who is anybody else to make you feel ashamed of that?

Speaker A01:38:00

Yeah.I think that's a good point.Because if it's, if it isn't if it's not a toxic situation or organization, you will be supported in whatever decision you make.

Speaker B01:38:12

Right.Knowing that you have your own agency and like, oh, hey, this person wants to go somewhere else for these reasons.They have their own agency.

Speaker A01:38:22

Yeah.In a healthy situation, they might be sad that you're leaving if you added value to their.

Speaker B01:38:28

But they would bless you.

Speaker A01:38:29

Yeah.They'll be in support of what you're doing.

Speaker B01:38:31

Realizing that they, they aren't the end all.Be all.

Speaker A01:38:34

Yeah.I think that's a good, important thing to realize.

Speaker B01:38:38

Yeah.You can forgive without staying.This is.You wrote this on the notes.You can forgive without staying.Do you want to talk about that?

Speaker A01:38:54

Sure.I'm trying to remember why I put that.

Speaker B01:39:00

Well, this is in reference to if, if you leave like after you have left.I think this goes to that sometimes leaving is used in retaliation and, and sometimes there's this narrative of like bitterness as if leaving an unhealthy environment is because you just, you can't forgive and you're not, you're just bitter.

Speaker A01:39:32

Yeah.So this is actually a good transition to the, the next area we kind of wanted to talk about.The faith based pushback.Right.

Speaker B01:39:40

Okay.Yeah.

Speaker A01:39:41

So I think this, yeah, this is a good transition because.So in the sense you can forgive without stain a lot of times.So I think a lot of times when we leave a situation before we're like, if it's a job, if before we're forced to.For instance, a lot of times we, we would see.I think sometimes we equate leaving on our own terms as giving up and failing.But in some aspects it's actually like you're, you're coming to this.The point where you're realizing you're telling yourself the truth about what's happening.You're not, you're no longer denying that truth of what's happening.And you, you can leave and forgive those people for the things they did without stain.So like staying doesn't mean you can only forgive if you stay.And I also think the aspect, for instance.So yeah, so talking about this faith based pushback, because a lot of times, a lot of times like we talked about, people will stay as a mission field.Right.And they think that's the only way that change will happen if we somehow influence that change.But we have no control over that.So I think that's important.Like a common belief is that God is.I have to stay because God is using this to refine me.Right.

Speaker B01:41:07

But it's still inserting ourself.In God's position.

Speaker A01:41:12

Yeah.

Speaker B01:41:14

Because the reality of it is, is if people wanted to change, the change would have already been enacted with or without us.

Speaker A01:41:26

Yes.Yeah.We have no control over that.Like, we have to leave that up to God and the Holy Spirit to initiate that, that change.But even I think sometimes when we think in our minds, like God is using this to refine me.I think sometimes that's why I wanted to, that's why I titled this eroding or refining, because I think sometimes we, we mash those two together and it's really hard to distinguish which is which.So I think sometimes when we tell ourselves God is using this to refine me, it's, it's more erosion than refining.

Speaker B01:42:02

Yeah.And again, going back to that idea of hard things and pushing through hard things and sticking through healthy things that are hard is different than backing up and beating your head up against a brick wall.

Speaker A01:42:19

Right?Yeah.So like, yeah, so if you, if the situation is not refining in the sense of, it's pushing you to grow as a person and your skills and abilities and to change the things you need to change and your health is declining, you're taking those things home with you.Like, there's a clear difference between those, the erosion and refining.

Speaker B01:42:43

Yeah.

Speaker A01:42:44

And, yeah, so.

Speaker B01:42:47

And sometimes people can use like suffering as a weapon.Like, well, maybe God has just called you to this suffering, but that negates the whole point of why Christ suffered.He suffered.He was refined for a glorious outcome.Not to endure suffering just ad nauseam for no point, just so other people can erode your boundaries.

Speaker A01:43:19

Yeah.So this is great because I, there were a few people who had told me this specifically that, you know, yeah, Jesus endured suffering faithfully.So you need to stay in this job.And that's kind of cherry picking things about Jesus's life.

Speaker B01:43:37

Well, it's kind of equating a job with the salvation of the world.

Speaker A01:43:41

Well, that too.Yes.Yeah.So, yes, Jesus.Jesus was faithful in his suffering.

Speaker B01:43:47

You must stay in this job, so you save the world.

Speaker A01:43:50

What?Yeah, that's, that's too often we read ourselves into the story of Jesus and it's like, no, I'm not Jesus.There's behaviors and things we are called to, to, to be imitators of Jesus.But yeah, I'm not getting ready to save the world with this job.So that's, that's.I'm glad you brought that up because that's an important distinction that people are.

Speaker B01:44:15

Often told, like, take this job and shove it.I ain't working Here, no more.

Speaker A01:44:19

Yeah, but Jesus, Jesus definitely suffered faithfully, but his suffering was intentional and purposeful.

Speaker B01:44:30

Yeah, yeah.And he, it was.If we look at his life refining again, going back to the refining or eroding, like, I'm just gonna crawl back up on this cross so you can abuse me?

Speaker A01:44:44

Well, yeah, but even, even when you look at Jesus's time on earth as a whole, he did not, he did not even remain in every harmful situation.Right.There was times he left harmful situations to seek solitude and be with the Father.

Speaker B01:45:01

And he chose the suffering.

Speaker A01:45:04

Yes.

Speaker B01:45:05

He subjected himself to the Father's will.

Speaker A01:45:09

Right.And in the sense that the cross was a very specific calling, not a universal pattern.And so it's important we distinguish that in these types of situations.Like, sometimes I think people are well intentioned when they bring it up and, but I don't think they think through all the implications of like, Right.Their advice sometimes.

Speaker B01:45:31

Right.Yes.And I think maybe that when people say that they're thinking more about hard situations more than harmful situations.

Speaker A01:45:43

Yes.Yeah, I think that's a good distinction.But yeah, and we have to, we.

Speaker B01:45:49

Have to be careful.And that's why I think going back to the beginning of the podcast, we have to understand the difference between hard and harm.

Speaker A01:46:01

Yes.Yeah, yeah.That's how we started out.Defining toxicity is like, it's not hard things, it's patterns of behavior.

Speaker B01:46:09

Yeah.

Speaker A01:46:10

So that's great.Just closing out.So we've, we've mostly addressed kind of helping people in these toxic environments to think through all these different things.But I kind of, we kind of want to challenge people who are doing the harm.Right.Because that's an important part of this as well.So I, I just want to kind of put some of that here at the end just for people to think through.Anybody listening who maybe is creating these toxic environments.

Speaker B01:46:50

There's a quote by.Henry Cloud.It's, it's not the main boundaries book, but I think it's boundaries for leaders.I think it's in that book where he talks about culture is a combination of what you create and what you allow.And culture is just a fancy word for how, how an organization does things.It's like a buzzword.But how, how your organization does something is the combination of what you are creating, but also what you're allowing, what you are addressing and what you're not addressing.And something that I want to highlight here in, we highlighted this earlier when we talking about, you know, staying or going is like, okay, so what type of leader do you want to become.And we.We repeat patterns that we are familiar with.This is just a human thing.We're all prone to be like this.And I think it takes just a sober mindset of intentionally saying, I don't.I don't want to be a bad leader.I. I want to be a good leader.And in order to do that, you have to.You have to hear hard things.You can't be closed off to only people who are affirming you, but you have to hear in ways in which you are broken, in ways which you are dysfunctional, and it stinks and it's hard, but it's how you address that and change and grow and fix what isn't working.Well.

Speaker A01:48:35

Yeah, for sure.Um, so, yeah, as we think through this, just some challenge to employers, managers, supervisors, whatever role you're in, that may require you to be influencing other people.Some questions to think through.What behaviors are you allowing?What behaviors are you modeling?Like you said, can you receive feedback?I think that's one of the biggest things.Like, if you're in a situation where.You give feedback when it's asked of you, but it's rejected or not, you know, taken as feedback, things aren't changed.I think that's a red flag if it's something to watch for.

Speaker B01:49:20

Yeah.If you are being defensive when receiving that feedback because it puts yourself in someone else's position.You know, say.Say you're managing someone and someone.Someone risks retaliation from you by giving you feedback, or they risk approval from you by giving you feedback.They've.They've put themselves in a very vulnerable position.And then when.When you respond in anything other than thank you for that feedback, I, I really need to think on this, really.Basically anything other than that.They might shrink themselves because nobody wants to.Like, everybody wants to please their boss.Well, every reasonable person wants to please please their boss.And we.I think we unintentionally can create environments with defensiveness, with a rejection, or even like, like, oh, well, that person is always so critical.They're so critical that.And it's like, okay, well, maybe they are still doesn't mean that what they're saying isn't true.

Speaker A01:50:42

Yeah.Okay, so let me.We want to be encouraging as well.Right.This is a lot of heavy stuff.I hope we've been encouraging in some points of this by helping people.Let me give a good example.Right.

Speaker B01:50:57

Okay.

Speaker A01:50:58

Because I thought of this as you were talking through some of this in regards to feedback.So after I, After I was let go from that job, I had A couple of months where I was looking for a new job, and I started working for a company that I worked for before, which, ironically, I was let go a few months later from that job.But that was more of, like, a financial downsizing decision that had nothing to do with anything else, you know, so no hard feelings there.But the.My manager at that job, it was a customer service job.And one thing that really.And when.When this manager came to me and she.And talked to me and a couple other people under her, I. I almost didn't believe it at first because I was like, what.What is this I'm experiencing from you?And I don't know how to process this.So very early on in that position, they were restructuring some of the departments.So she came, we were getting ready to have a meeting with me, myself, her, and another guy that were going to be in that department.And she said, going into this meeting next week, I want you both to be thinking about some ways that I, as your manager, like, what are your expectations of me as your manager?Right.So she wanted us to think through that.And the one thing she made sure to say was she's like, I do not want to be a manager who puts expectations on you that I myself cannot do or cannot, you know, expect out of myself, basically, was the idea.And I'm just like, what is this?Like, I did not get this out of my last job.

Speaker B01:52:53

Yeah.

Speaker A01:52:54

And so that.That in itself was encouraging because she was saying, I am not above having expectations on myself in how I should lead you guys.What you, you know, you.You have expectations on me as the manager.What do those look like?And we can talk through are those healthy expectations or those outside of my realm of your being your manager.So that in itself was just helpful for me to see that somebody living that out in a way that came through in the way she worked and talked, you know, herself about, like, ways, you know, when she approached you about ways you could improve, like, you knew it was from a sincere place of, like, it was not something that she had not thought through for herself as well.

Speaker B01:53:45

Yeah.So, yeah.Creating.Creating feedback channels.

Speaker A01:53:51

Yeah.From people not above you.

Speaker B01:53:53

Right, right.

Speaker A01:53:54

That's important as well.

Speaker B01:53:56

Right?Yeah.Because truth be told, the ones who are following us are typically the ones who are going to get the worst version of us.

Speaker A01:54:10

Yeah.

Speaker B01:54:12

And I think just having a smidgen of humility and asking people, hey, how do you experience me?I think that creates a great discussion.You may.You may not.You may have to do this several times before People begin to trust that you really want to receive their feedback because again, people aren't going to trust you at first.They are.They, they may say, oh, it's great, it's fantastic, everything's wonderful.You may get two different kinds of responses.At first you might get like, we should burn this whole point place down or everything's wonderful.

Speaker A01:54:58

Yeah.If you're not getting somewhere in the middle of those two extremes, you, you want to think through that because.

Speaker B01:55:04

Yeah.

Speaker A01:55:04

If you're just getting people who are blowing smoke.

Speaker B01:55:07

Yeah.But it, it takes time to build that trust, to build that, that authenticity, that transparency where the people that are working for you or that you're in charge of that are following.You generally feel safe to say, hey, when you do this, certain thing just doesn't come out the way that you think it does.Or, or, or even like operationally, hey, this isn't working operationally.Can we, can we, you know, reinvent the wheel or so to speak?

Speaker A01:55:46

Yeah, for.Yeah.And I agree because I'm thinking through also too.Like, so was it this past week we put out, I put out the weekly newsletter from the podcast called Oasis and I just finished up a five part series on growth.And it's kind of amazing.Like, I just started the newsletter back up because before it was kind of like too much information for people to, to, to process through.And so now it's kind of more concise.It takes like less than five minutes to read.But for me, like this series on growth was kind of like I was living it in the moment as I was, you know, writing these newsletters.Because, I mean, that's, I guess why you write them, because it's something you're experiencing, you want other people to think through.But there was a couple of them where I had to come back to you and like, questions I was asking the readers was like I had to come to you and be like, what do you think about this?Like when it comes to my growth, blah, blah, blah.And I had to ask you questions about that and get feedback.So yeah, it's definitely important to keep those channels open with people to show that you're willing to change things you need to change.Man, that's a lot of information.Again, like, I hope we've been encouraging to people and I think just thinking through some final thoughts.Anything else?Thinking through how to land this plane?

Speaker B01:57:25

Yeah.

Speaker A01:57:25

How can we be encouraging to people walking through this?I think, I think just people, I think.So one thing I'm thinking through is people realizing it's okay.To be wrestling through these things.Right.Like, we've addressed a lot of different things circling around this idea of erosion and refinement.And I want people to just feel okay about being overwhelmed because again, it's not just a black and white thing.There's a lot of things to think through and having healthy channels to talk that through with outside of that environment.Like people not directly connected to that environment.Yeah, I think is a healthy way to get third party advice where, you know, it's going to be neutral and it's going to be not connected to that situation.

Speaker B01:58:21

Right.Yeah, it'll be more of an, of an objective look at what's going on.And.Yeah, like you said, a third party, if you will.And I think just to reiterate kind of what you said, it's like it's okay to not be okay.Like sometimes in the wrestling we want to, we want to not wrestle and we want it just to be black and white.Should I stay?Should I go?Yes, somebody just tell me and I'll do it and then maybe.And will I?I don't know.In that wrestling, God is still using that.He.He will use.If you stay, he will use it.If you go, he will use it.Like God is going to do what God is going to do.And we can actually rest in that.In that he's going to use all things.He's the only God that can use all things good and evil to work out the things that he's going to work out for, for our good, for his purposes, for his glory.And I think remembering who is really in control and who is the one that we can ultimately trust everything with.It's not a person.It's not even, it's not even like with ourselves, you know, like, because we are untrusting of ourselves.That's why we're wavering in.Is this toxic?Is it not toxic?Because, you know, there's still this thing inside of us that's saying, I don't know that I can really trust myself or I don't know, I can really trust that person.Well, who we can trust is God.We can always trust God.And when he gives us a clear open door or when that door is shut, we can trust him either way.And when the door opens, we walk through it.Encourage trusting again, trusting in him even when it's unknown, even when it's scary, even when we're like, is this an open door?And just boldly walk through in faith, knowing that he has plans to prosper us and When I say prosper, I don't mean, like, financially.I mean, like if for our growth, as an example of being a child of God, we're going to grow.

Speaker A02:00:50

Yeah.And I think too, like, if you're in the middle of a situation like this, it's.God is not the author of chaos.Right.So if you're experiencing that, it's probably not God, but he is with you in that situation.

Speaker B02:01:09

Yeah.

Speaker A02:01:10

And you, you know, you have to navigate if you're being refined or eroded because it's.Yeah, it is tough.And not, not every, not every hard season is meant to be escaped, but not every hard season is meant to be endured either.So you have to think through that.What's right for you, what is.Where is God leading you?Maybe it's to stay, but if you're being eroded, it might be God wanting you to take that step of faith out and be like, okay, I'm leaving.You know, what are you calling.Calling me to next in this?And sometimes.Yeah, sometimes that's the most honest, spiritual thing we can do is to step away.And it's not failure.

Speaker B02:01:52

Yeah.

Speaker A02:01:53

So I think that's.

Speaker B02:01:54

Yeah.

Speaker A02:01:55

That's important for people to realize.And.Yeah.Whether.Wherever people are at, whether they're staying, whether they're going to go, I think it's important to.Or I think this helps give people a framework to think through where they're at.

Speaker B02:02:13

Yeah.

Speaker A02:02:14

Where they need to be.

Speaker B02:02:15

Yeah.

Speaker A02:02:15

So I think that lands it pretty well, hopefully.I hope people are encouraged and know that they're not the only people going through this.This.Like I said, like, even in the week or so preparing for this, the last week or two, we've had conversations with people who are walking through this exact thing, and they don't.

Speaker B02:02:37

They don't have peace and they don't have clarity.And it's a tough spot to be in.But I think back in Isaiah where he says he will keep in perfect peace.Sue's minds are stayed on him.And again, that's where.That's where our hope lies.And hopefully this is just.Just kind of one more conversation in that endeavor to keep our eyes focused on God.

Speaker A02:03:07

Yes.That's encouraging to me as well.So I didn't.I'm glad we kind of have some space between all this because if we had recorded this early on, like, it would not have gone well.It would.Had a totally different vibe to the episode and stuff.We had to work through and I had to work through and appreciate you guys listening to this episode and watching it just before we close out in prayer.Just to remind you, you can check out the website@theprodigaljourney.com.We've updated some things there to reflect the new direction of the podcast, to be more inclusive of all the ideas we have coming up for the episodes.And also a new logo.

Speaker B02:03:52

Aren't you.

Speaker A02:03:53

No, I'm not.I love the logo.

Speaker B02:03:55

I love the logo too.

Speaker A02:03:56

We've got some new merch, some mugs that reflect the new direction.Faith, struggle, becoming.So you can find all that on the website.You can go to.I don't remember the link right now, but we'll put it in the show notes.You can support the podcast.We also have a new video channel that'll be linked in the notes and the website that just kind of.Before we close.Let me.I just want to say this.The reason I did that is because we do sometimes, you know, sometimes the videos are on YouTube.But this direction is more of like a community aspect where the channel feels more like it's branded for the podcast.It's just more control over being able to build a community of people.And.Which is what I like about the idea.And it's hosted on the website.So people.You can go to videos.theprodigal journey.com and find the.The whole back catalog of videos we will have posted there.All three of them.This will make the third video like the last newsletter I sent out.Somebody asked me.They're like, like, you only have two videos.I was like.Because we've.We're just.We haven't been doing videos and now we are.And so now this will make the third video.Fourth maybe.

Speaker B02:05:13

Get off my back.Stop judging me.Yeah, life's been rough.

Speaker A02:05:18

Yeah.

Speaker B02:05:18

But we good now.

Speaker A02:05:19

But we're excited about that.And you can find all that on the website.So would you like to close us in prayer?

Speaker B02:05:26

Sure.Yeah.Father God, we.We thank you for this space just to talk through the things that you've brought us through.And we hope that as others are listening that it is helpful in navigating the different situations that you're bringing everybody through.And I hope that as people are listening, they realize that they.They are not lost.They.You know exactly where they are.And you are the author and the finisher of their faith.And.And you do work all things for our good and for your glory.So we put our hope, we put our trust in you and you alone.In Jesus name we pray.Amen.

Speaker A02:06:16

Amen.Thanks for watching.See you on the next episode.Help me help me.You sound so much louder than me.

Speaker B02:06:46

Now you sound louder than me.

Speaker A02:06:49

Ready?

Speaker B02:06:50

Nope.

Speaker A02:06:52

You're playing games when we're trying to do this.