We dig into why people stay in abusive relationships — Dawn shares her story of being married to Sean, the years of coercive control, shame, and the church pressure that told her to “do the right thing” even when it cost her health and identity. I (Dawn) talk about how a fast courtship, an unexpected pregnancy, isolation, and messages about submission made me doubt myself, stay in survival mode, and even feel “so incredibly faithless” at times. We unpack how well-meaning pastors focused on behavior modification instead of root issues, how a friend and counselor (shout out to Brandy and Andrea) finally helped give permission, and how worship and reclaiming the gospel became the lifeline that led me to leave. Ben and I also wrestle with how churches can enable abuse by telling victims to go back, why one person believing a victim matters, and how marked repentance — not platitudes — is the line between restoration and danger. I share the painful aftermath — Sean’s suicide, my journey to forgiveness, and the hard, hopeful truth that there is hope for victims and for abusers who turn to Christ. If you want candid, sometimes raw talk about faith, safety, and how the church should actually protect the vulnerable, we walk through it here.
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iHeartRadio Sensitive Content Disclaimer: On this episode we will be talking about sensitive topics related to abuse that may not be suitable for all audiences. We hope and pray that the open conversation on this episode brings education and hope. However, if you are likely to be adversely impacted by these topics, please refrain from listening.
——————————
SUMMARY/INTRO:
We dig into why people stay in abusive relationships — Dawn shares her story of being married to Sean, the years of coercive control, shame, and the church pressure that told her to “do the right thing” even when it cost her health and identity. I (Dawn) talk about how a fast courtship, an unexpected pregnancy, isolation, and messages about submission made me doubt myself, stay in survival mode, and even feel “so incredibly faithless” at times. We unpack how well-meaning pastors focused on behavior modification instead of root issues, how a friend and counselor (shout out to Brandy and Andrea) finally helped give permission, and how worship and reclaiming the gospel became the lifeline that led me to leave. Ben and I also wrestle with how churches can enable abuse by telling victims to go back, why one person believing a victim matters, and how marked repentance — not platitudes — is the line between restoration and danger. I share the painful aftermath — Sean’s suicide, my journey to forgiveness, and the hard, hopeful truth that there is hope for victims and for abusers who turn to Christ. If you want candid, sometimes raw talk about faith, safety, and how the church should actually protect the vulnerable, we walk through it here.
——————————
SHOW NOTES:
Why do people stay in abusive relationships? From the outside, it can seem simple: if someone is being mistreated, why don’t they just leave? But the reality of an abusive relationship is much more complicated.
In this episode of The Prodigal Journey, Ben and Dawn have an honest conversation about Dawn’s experience in an abusive marriage and the many factors that made leaving so difficult. Rather than telling her entire story, they focus specifically on the question people often ask: Why did you stay?
Dawn shares how the relationship began in a church community and how she initially believed she knew her husband well because they had been friends for years. Looking back, she can identify red flags that she dismissed, including jealousy, accusations, boundary violations, and controlling behavior. The short dating and engagement period also meant that important conversations never happened before marriage.
After they married, Dawn found herself isolated, depressed, ashamed, and increasingly focused on simply surviving. She describes losing her joy, stepping away from church and music, and struggling to understand what was happening to her. Meanwhile, her husband viewed his role primarily through the lens of providing financially, while the emotional and relational needs of the family went largely unrecognized.
The conversation explores why abusive relationships can be so difficult to leave. Dawn talks about the cycle of extreme highs and deep lows, the good moments that made it possible to keep hoping for another good moment, and the way shame can cause someone to hide what is happening rather than ask for help.
The episode also takes a hard look at the role of the church. Dawn describes seeking help and receiving advice that focused on changing behavior rather than addressing deeper patterns of manipulation, control, and abuse. Ben and Dawn discuss the difference between dealing with the visible “fruit” of a problem and addressing its root. They also examine how teachings about submission, marriage, and religious responsibility can become harmful when they are applied without recognizing abuse and coercive control.
One of the most difficult parts of Dawn’s story is what happened after she first left. She describes feeling religiously pressured to return and believing that doing the “right thing” meant staying, even when she knew she did not love her husband. She believed she needed to pray more, read her Bible more, and become a better Christian.
Eventually, trusted friends helped Dawn recognize what was actually happening. They encouraged her not to return without a marked pattern of repentance and meaningful change. That support became part of what helped her understand that leaving did not necessarily mean abandoning God or failing in her faith.
Dawn ultimately shares the moment when she finally stood her ground, recognized that the situation had become dangerous, and left. Even afterward, threats and controlling behavior continued, reinforcing how complicated and frightening leaving an abusive relationship can be.
The episode closes with hope for people on both sides of abuse: those who are trapped in abusive relationships and those who may recognize abusive patterns in themselves. Dawn shares how worship, Scripture, community, and trusted relationships helped her rediscover her identity and continue trusting God through the process.
This is a conversation for victims, survivors, friends and family members, pastors, church leaders, and anyone trying to understand why leaving an abusive relationship is rarely as simple as saying, “Just leave.”
LINKS TO DAWN’S FULL STORY:
Miracle Hill Podcast (More full story):
Reconcile Stories Podcast (Episode on mental health and the local church):
TAKEAWAYS:
- Leaving an abusive relationship is often much more complicated than simply deciding to leave.
- People may dismiss red flags because of infatuation, hope, shame, or the belief that they know their partner well.
- Abuse can involve patterns of jealousy, control, manipulation, accusations, verbal abuse, and coercive behavior.
- Good moments in an abusive relationship can make it difficult to recognize or act on the seriousness of the bad moments.
- Shame can cause victims to hide what is happening and become isolated from people who could help.
- Religious beliefs can sometimes become entangled with an abusive relationship, making it harder for someone to recognize that leaving may be necessary.
- Faith does not make someone immune to abuse or automatically give them clarity about what to do.
- Focusing only on the “fruit” of abusive behavior can miss the root issues of manipulation, control, and sin.
- Churches have a responsibility to care for people experiencing abuse rather than simply prioritizing keeping marriages together.
- A victim may not initially have the words or understanding necessary to explain what is happening.
- Marriage counseling or behavior modification alone may not address the deeper patterns behind abuse and coercive control.
- Trusted friends can play a critical role in helping someone recognize abuse and find safety.
- A genuine pattern of repentance and meaningful change matters when evaluating whether an abusive relationship can be restored.
- Separation does not automatically mean divorce, and leaving an unsafe environment can create space for clarity and safety.
- Someone experiencing abuse may need another person to tell them that it is okay to leave.
- Christians should be careful not to use biblical language about marriage and submission to enable abuse.
- God cares about people made in His image, not merely preserving an institution.
- There is hope for people who are experiencing abuse—and also for people who recognize abusive patterns in themselves.
- Healing can involve rediscovering truth, identity, community, and trust in God.
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CHAPTERS:
00:00 — Why Do People Stay in Abusive Relationships?
05:24 — Falling in Love & Missing the Red Flags
21:52 — Shame, Pregnancy & Pressure to Get Married
24:51 — Depression, Isolation & Surviving the Marriage
36:39 — The Moment Dawn Realized She Had to Leave
41:37 — Leaving, Returning & Religious Pressure
51:26 — When Faith Becomes a Reason to Stay
01:09:33 — Finding Support, Protection & Real Repentance
01:13:00 — The Final Straw & Leaving for Good
01:18:08 — What Should the Church Do About Abuse?
01:25:20 — When a Church Enables Abuse
01:28:17 — Hope for Those Still Trapped
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Intro/Outro music used with permission under a standard music license, purchased from @wavebeatsmusic. License certificate on file.
Credits:
Track Title: 'Motivational Power'
Music by WavebeatsMusic
Promo Video: https://youtu.be/5hTaTrJowJk
Track Info:
WBM T73: 'Motivational Power"
Artist: WavebeatsMusic
Composer: Henrique Tavares Dib
PRO: APRA/AMCOS, IPI:00611600895
Publisher: Songtrust ST Music ANZ PTY LTD, IPI: 825751036
00:00 - Why Do People Stay in Abusive Relationships?
05:24 - Falling in Love & Missing the Red Flags
21:52 - Shame, Pregnancy & Pressure to Get Married
24:51 - Depression, Isolation & Surviving the Marriage
36:39 - The Moment Dawn Realized She Had to Leave
41:37 - Leaving, Returning & Religious Pressure
51:26 - When Faith Becomes a Reason to Stay
01:09:33 - Finding Support, Protection & Real Repentance
01:13:00 - The Final Straw & Leaving for Good
01:18:08 - What Should the Church Do About Abuse?
01:25:20 - When a Church Enables Abuse
01:28:17 - Hope for Those Still Trapped
Speaker A
And I was so incredibly faithless.
Speaker A
I still had my faith that I had as a young girl, and I believed in a good God, but I just.
Speaker A
I didn't know where he was.
Speaker A
But I finally got to the point I began to see the God again that I remembered as a child.
Speaker B
Welcome to the Prodigal Journey, where we celebrate Christ's power through our weakness.
Speaker B
And thank you for joining us on this episode.
Speaker B
All right, welcome to another episode of the Prodigal journey.
Speaker B
Episode number 20.
Speaker A
Yay.
Speaker B
How does it feel to be episode number 20?
Speaker A
Good.
Speaker A
I felt bad because I want to help you out with doing your podcast stuff, and I think the best way for me to do that is to be, you know, a co host on here.
Speaker A
And so I. Yeah.
Speaker A
Every time we plan to record an episode and something happens, whether it's even, you know, has anything to do with my schedule or your schedule, I just.
Speaker A
I feel, man, I'm like, ah, yeah, it is.
Speaker B
I don't think people realize sometimes how much work it is.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
By the way, this is your host, Ben, and Dawn is my co host again for this episode.
Speaker A
Hello.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
And I think some of what played into that is we were kind of having to set up equipment in the kitchen, at the dining room table, and record, and then we would take down equipment, and there was just a whole thing to set up and tear down, and then I have to go in and I do all the editing myself for the audio.
Speaker B
So it's just a lot of work.
Speaker B
But now we have somewhat more of a permanent space in one of the boys rooms that is no longer the boys room.
Speaker B
We've made kind of like an office slash podcast studio, so the equipment can just stay there and not have to move.
Speaker B
It's a little easier to just come in, sit down and hit record and not have to worry about all the wires and craziness that's we were having to do before.
Speaker B
So.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
And I found some really comfy leather chairs at Miracle Hill Thrift Store.
Speaker B
Yes.
Speaker B
Shout out to Miracle Hill Thrift Store.
Speaker A
Yes.
Speaker B
Yeah, so it's a little bit less time consuming in that sense, and it's.
Speaker B
It takes a little bit of pressure off of me.
Speaker B
Not that I'm not motivated to record because we have a lot of content we need to get out, but it was just trying to find that time.
Speaker A
Yeah, a lot of.
Speaker A
It's a lot of hurdles.
Speaker A
A lot of hurdles.
Speaker A
Then, you know, it's kind of like when you make a commitment to, like, go to the gym and, you know, if the gym is further than one minute away from your house.
Speaker A
Like, there's just all kinds of hurdles and obstacles.
Speaker A
There's obstacles that's going to keep you from going to the gym.
Speaker B
Yeah, I think we even said that this morning.
Speaker B
We've been trying to find a new church home, and the one we visited today was, like, literally just down the road.
Speaker B
And I think you said, I hope.
Speaker B
Kind of hope this works out, because it's just down the road.
Speaker A
That's so convenient.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
There's so many different factors sometimes.
Speaker B
Yeah, somehow we got off track.
Speaker B
This episode we would like.
Speaker B
We kind of just want to talk through a little bit of your story, and this episode was kind of your idea, actually.
Speaker B
And this is only one kind of one factor or facet of your story that we're going to focus on.
Speaker B
And we kind of want to talk about why people stay in abusive relationships and specifically, you know, in your story about why you stayed.
Speaker B
Because I think so many times it's something that people don't really understand, and I've heard people say, oh, if they really want to get out of it, they can just leave.
Speaker B
And there's so many other factors that go into somebody's story and journey through abuse that it's just not that easy.
Speaker B
And so our hope is that through this, it can help shed some more light on some of that for people who don't understand.
Speaker B
And, yeah, I mean, it's just so much to unpack.
Speaker B
And we're hoping through some of this, it can help lighten the weight of that a little bit for people.
Speaker B
We kind of were talking earlier about we haven't done an episode of your whole story yet.
Speaker B
Not that we haven't wanted to.
Speaker B
We just have had other episodes we've been doing and stuff and releasing.
Speaker B
So I think we might at some point.
Speaker B
But I also wanted to point it out.
Speaker B
I can't remember if it was last year, but sometime in the last year, you did do an interview over Miracle Hill has a podcast now called Miracles from the Hill, and Ryan did do an interview with you over there about your story, and he pretty much covered everything from childhood to up until now, pretty much.
Speaker B
So I would encourage people to go find that mayor that's on the Miracles from the Hill podcast, and I think the title is Suicide, Loss, Grief, and Mental Illness.
Speaker B
So I'd encourage you guys to go listen to that.
Speaker B
We haven't posted a dawn story yet, but you can go over and find that on the Miracles from the Hill podcast.
Speaker B
And I just have to say, like, for you to step out and share those parts of your story.
Speaker B
And that wasn't even everything either.
Speaker B
I mean, even for the hour or so that the interview was, it still wasn't everything.
Speaker B
And I think even in that, you did an amazing job at being vulnerable, emotionally vulnerable, and sharing with people things from your journey.
Speaker B
And, yeah, I mean, I don't think people can make it through that.
Speaker B
That interview without pausing it a couple times, just because there's so much to digest and think through and process.
Speaker B
But I do appreciate you being willing to share that story and help other people who are maybe still in the middle of it or just trying to figure it out.
Speaker B
So, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B
So we will.
Speaker B
Just in case you forget that title, we will put a link in the show notes to that interview she did over on Miracle Hill's podcast.
Speaker B
But I guess that kind of gives a spoiler alert because your first husband, Sean, did die by suicide.
Speaker A
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A
He struggled with mental illness and substance abuse.
Speaker A
We were married for 19 years.
Speaker A
We were married.
Speaker A
And in 2018, he ended his own life.
Speaker A
So a lot of what I shared in the Miracles from the Hill podcast was specifically on suicide, loss and grief.
Speaker B
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker B
And then in this episode, we're going to focus more on why somebody would stay in an abusive relationship.
Speaker B
And again, I think it's hard for people to understand sometimes, and we're going to hopefully unpack some of that, so.
Speaker B
Because it's not always as easy as just leaving.
Speaker B
So thank you for your willingness to share.
Speaker B
Let's just kind of start at the beginning of your relationship with him.
Speaker B
Where did you and Sean meet?
Speaker A
We met at church.
Speaker B
Okay.
Speaker B
Where were you guys living at the time?
Speaker A
So I had gone down to school.
Speaker A
Charleston Southern University.
Speaker A
That's where I went to college.
Speaker A
And I was looking for a church and got plugged in at a church that was kind of right down the road from that school.
Speaker A
And he had actually been going to that church pretty much all his life.
Speaker B
Okay.
Speaker B
Did you guys kind of hang out in the same friend circle or.
Speaker A
Yeah, there was like a.
Speaker A
A college and career type group.
Speaker A
I think there was actually a name for it.
Speaker A
But we.
Speaker A
We met, you know, Sunday nights and then hung out over at someone's home throughout the week and even had our own small group.
Speaker A
And.
Speaker A
And so, yeah, we were.
Speaker A
We were friends and hung out in that same group for, gosh, probably well into two years or.
Speaker A
Or, you know, one to two years before we actually started dating.
Speaker B
Okay.
Speaker B
And, like, what exactly did the dating process look like for you guys?
Speaker A
So it was very short, I guess.
Speaker A
I had fooled myself into thinking that I knew him really well because we had been friends.
Speaker A
But I don't, I don't think that in that dating process that we really unpacked all the things that we should have unpacked and communicated through before getting married.
Speaker A
And we were young too, so I think it was just kind of like, you know, well, we like each other, let's get married.
Speaker A
And yeah, so it was very short.
Speaker A
And yeah, did.
Speaker B
During that time, did it from what you could understand, I mean, had you guys talked about your relationship with God?
Speaker B
Had he talked much about whether he was a Christian and kind of what was your relationship like with God during that time as well?
Speaker A
So I felt like my relationship with God was very strong.
Speaker A
I had been, you know, following Christ throughout, know, my teenage years and went to school to study church music and study theology.
Speaker A
And I just, I wanted to know more about God and, and I, I was in a, I think a very strong relationship with spiritual routines, prayer, reading the Bible.
Speaker A
Yeah, obviously going to church and having a biblical community that I did life with.
Speaker A
And I, I thought that he was the same.
Speaker A
I felt like he was pursuing God too.
Speaker A
He was incredibly smart.
Speaker A
He asked a lot of in depth questions and he, he had some, some very good points about God.
Speaker B
And.
Speaker A
But at the time I didn't recognize that, you know, that potentially he, he might not be as stable mentally and emotionally as that.
Speaker A
I just assumed he was.
Speaker B
Okay.
Speaker A
And so.
Speaker A
Yeah, and so some of that kind of came out in ways he talked about God and how he kind of processed who God was like.
Speaker A
And I would say, you know, he served in church and he faithfully attended and he read his Bible.
Speaker A
And so I felt like, yeah, I just, I guess I was just naive and I thought, oh, he does all the stuff.
Speaker A
What can go wrong?
Speaker B
Yeah, so initially there wasn't really, I mean, from your perspective and what you were seeing, there didn't, there didn't seem to be anything that would cause you to question anything.
Speaker A
Well, there was, I just dismissed it.
Speaker B
Okay.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
So looking back, there were some red flags.
Speaker A
There was jealousy.
Speaker A
He accused me of liking his best friend, and then there was physical contact that I always wasn't comfortable with.
Speaker A
And yeah, so there, there were a lot of red flags.
Speaker A
And yeah, we just, the dating period just was so short and I was infatuated and I dismissed all the things that I should not have dismissed.
Speaker B
When you say physical contact, do you mean like between the two of you or him and other people or.
Speaker A
Well, there was one instance that I wasn't actually there for.
Speaker A
But apparently he had made someone really mad and.
Speaker A
And was, like, laughing about it and so.
Speaker A
No, not necessarily with other people, although there was an.
Speaker A
An incidence of that.
Speaker A
But yeah, it just some.
Speaker A
Some things I was uncomfortable with, like, he would tickle me, and I didn't care for that, and.
Speaker A
And I'd say I didn't care for it, and he'd just kind of laugh at me and, like, you know, like, it was all a big joke and.
Speaker B
Okay.
Speaker A
And.
Speaker A
Yeah, and there.
Speaker A
And there was more.
Speaker B
So it was.
Speaker B
It was kind of along the lines of boundaries and just respecting and.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
So you guys had known each other for a couple years before you started dating.
Speaker A
How.
Speaker B
How long was the dating process once between dating and getting married?
Speaker A
Oh, gosh, it was like, three months.
Speaker B
Okay.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
So pretty fast.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
I mean, and then how long.
Speaker B
How long after you started dating did you start to notice some things that were concerning to you?
Speaker A
I mean, as.
Speaker A
Pretty much as soon as we started dating.
Speaker A
Yeah, there were.
Speaker A
There were several specific incidences of.
Speaker A
Of jealousy.
Speaker A
Like, again, I mentioned, he.
Speaker A
He said that I liked his best friend, and I was showing his best friend too much attention.
Speaker A
And then there was another incident where we had gone on this hay ride, and we went to this Oktoberfest, some type of thing, and I wanted to go on a hayride, but he didn't.
Speaker A
And so I assumed, me being my own self, that I would go on the hayride, and I did.
Speaker A
And when I got back, he was incredibly mad, and.
Speaker A
And I just.
Speaker A
I didn't understand why, you know, because in my mind, you know, we're.
Speaker A
We're two individuals.
Speaker A
I wanted to go on the hayride, and he didn't.
Speaker A
And so I went on the hayride.
Speaker A
Um, but yeah, he.
Speaker A
After that, he went and talked to me, like, the whole night.
Speaker A
And.
Speaker A
Yeah, so even kind of the way that, like, he withdrew in his anger, and then he just.
Speaker A
And then once I finally got him to open up, he just, like, fussed at me for not considering him and.
Speaker A
And his feelings and how me going on the hayride had hurt his feelings.
Speaker B
So there was even in that there was no conversation ahead of time about.
Speaker B
I mean, you had obviously expressed that you wanted to do this and he wanted to do that, but.
Speaker A
And I.
Speaker A
And I thought that was.
Speaker A
That I was like, oh, okay, well, then I'll go on the hayride.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
So there really wasn't any.
Speaker B
Any conversation other than that as far as, like, hey, maybe I can.
Speaker B
You know, maybe he was willing to sacrifice this time and go with you or even being okay with maybe doing two separate things.
Speaker A
Right.
Speaker B
And that's.
Speaker B
I.
Speaker B
And I think in my own story, like, that's something I've had to work through a lot, because there's times when, like, we both have different hobbies and things we like to do, and we don't always necessarily want to be doing the same thing.
Speaker B
And that's something I've had to work through because that doesn't mean that we.
Speaker B
That doesn't mean we don't love each other.
Speaker B
That doesn't mean we don't want to spend time together.
Speaker B
And sometimes.
Speaker B
Sometimes you just have to do different things.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
Well, it means that you are you and I am me.
Speaker A
And.
Speaker A
But on top of that, it was more than just, like, I could understand how, like, you know, if.
Speaker A
If I wanted to do something with you or, you know, some.
Speaker A
A similar scenario, say I wanted to do something and you didn't, and I went ahead and did it.
Speaker A
I can understand how you would feel some kind of way, but, like, the way that, like, you and I would work through that is you would approach me and you would, like, you know, ask me, hey, you know, or maybe not even ask.
Speaker A
You would just state how it made you feel, you know, and you say, hey, you know, when you went off without me, I was, you know, I was feeling kind of rejected and abandoned, and.
Speaker A
And we just.
Speaker A
We would talk through that, and that never really happened with Shawn.
Speaker A
He immediately escalated to.
Speaker A
To.
Speaker A
I didn't love him and I didn't prefer him, and I was selfish and I wasn't considerate.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
And so I think the key is being able to talk through those things, not assuming that whatever that person is doing means what you think it does, um, unless you hear it directly from them.
Speaker B
So, yeah, I mean, that's something I've had to learn because we'll, like, talk about the weekend coming up and what we want to get done or do.
Speaker B
And there's times, you know, I've set aside to do content for the podcast or the website, and there's times you want to be doing renovation stuff on the house and stuff like that.
Speaker B
And there's times you flat out said, I don't want your help.
Speaker B
I want to do this by myself.
Speaker B
And so at first, I kind of did take that as, like, a rejection thing.
Speaker B
And I'm like, well, I like doing this, too, with you, and we have done some renovation stuff together.
Speaker B
But there's times when you just want to do it yourself, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker A
Right?
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
But I think.
Speaker A
I think that one of the key differences is that, like, it's not an immediate assumption of wrongdoing and.
Speaker A
And even, like, accusations.
Speaker A
And I think that's.
Speaker A
That's the difference.
Speaker A
That was the red flag that I really want to.
Speaker A
That are.
Speaker A
That I really just feel a need to highlight is it was.
Speaker A
Yeah, there was no conversation.
Speaker A
It was immediately I was selfish, and there was something wrong with me.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
Now, when.
Speaker B
When those types of things came up, were you in a place where you felt like you could seek advice from friends and family at church, or did people ever come to you and say, hey, I've kind of noticed this and it's concerning.
Speaker B
Did you ever.
Speaker B
Were you ever able to do that?
Speaker A
I had one friend who.
Speaker A
I asked him.
Speaker A
He and I were very close, and I asked him what he thought about us dating, and he flat out said he didn't think we should.
Speaker A
And I, like, kept asking him because I wanted him to just agree and.
Speaker A
And I guess, like, give his blessing.
Speaker A
You know what I mean?
Speaker A
He was just.
Speaker A
I think he was just frustrated at the end of the conversation and.
Speaker A
And.
Speaker A
And basically just said, I mean, well, you know, you can.
Speaker A
You can date him.
Speaker A
And he wasn't, like, giving his blessing.
Speaker A
I think he was saying, well, yeah, you can date him.
Speaker A
Should you date him?
Speaker A
I don't think that you should.
Speaker A
Which he had already stated previously.
Speaker A
But again, I wanted what I wanted, and there were some things that I dismissed there.
Speaker A
There was, you know, questionable things happening that I overlooked.
Speaker A
I wanted to.
Speaker A
I wanted what I wanted.
Speaker A
And so I took that as him saying, okay, well, yeah, I can date him.
Speaker A
But as we became more physical and there were things happening that I started becoming.
Speaker A
I became ashamed of.
Speaker A
And so I did not tell anyone from there what was happening, and I hid it, and I ended up getting pregnant.
Speaker A
And then from there, it was kind of like, oh, well, we have to get married now.
Speaker B
Were you part of a church that pushed that?
Speaker A
I don't know.
Speaker B
Or did you just feel some type of unknown pressure, like that was what was supposed to happen?
Speaker A
I don't recall the.
Speaker A
The pastor ever saying anything or coming across in a certain way, like, young people should get married.
Speaker A
I know that the stance of sex outside of marriage was wrong.
Speaker A
I don't think necessarily that that equated to, oh, if she gets pregnant, they should get married.
Speaker A
I think there was a lot of people who thought that just culturally in the South.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
And just kind of like.
Speaker A
And even among a lot of religious circles, like, oh, yeah, that's well, yeah, that's probably the next best step.
Speaker A
But I also recall someone in our church saying around that same time that his cousin had like gotten pregnant.
Speaker A
And he was one of the leaders, one of the pastors of the church saying, mentioning something about his cousin had gotten married at around that same time.
Speaker A
And he and his wife actually went to visit his cousin.
Speaker A
And walk through, okay, well, just because you're pregnant, should you get married from here?
Speaker A
So I remember that happening as well.
Speaker A
And again, I don't necessarily think that it was a stance at our church, but I definitely felt pressure from just, you know, maybe just society in general.
Speaker A
This was the late 90s, so.
Speaker B
Yeah, and I just thought of that because I know in the churches I grew up in, that was very much like you could expect that to come from the church members if you were pregnant outside of marriage.
Speaker B
So it was just, hey, let's compound this with one other thing that's not necessarily found in scripture anywhere.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
So we were a little more, I would say my church tradition was a little more liberal in that area, but certainly a girl who was pregnant outside of wedlock would have been frowned upon.
Speaker A
But necessarily, should she have gotten married?
Speaker A
You know, who's to say?
Speaker B
Yeah, so that happens and then you guys decide to get married.
Speaker B
What was that first year of marriage like for you?
Speaker A
Oh, gosh, I was depressed.
Speaker A
I wonder if it was some type of postpartum depression that I suffered from after I had Michael, because I remember at one point I was laying on the couch with him and I kind of like turned my head inside the, like the cushion of the couch.
Speaker A
And I remember thinking that I would love it if I just suffocated and stopped breathing.
Speaker A
And I was filled with so much shame and I didn't even really know where it all came from.
Speaker A
And I didn't know back then what exactly it was.
Speaker A
I just knew that I lost my happiness, I lost my joy.
Speaker A
I didn't want to go to church.
Speaker A
I rarely read my Bible.
Speaker A
I just, I wanted to die.
Speaker A
And I thought that something was wrong with me, that I shouldn't want to feel like that and I shouldn't feel like that.
Speaker A
And Sean, he felt the pressure of having to provide for the family.
Speaker A
So he actually was gone a lot.
Speaker A
He worked a full time job and then he went to school in the evenings four nights a week.
Speaker A
So typically he left for work around like 6:30.
Speaker A
And then he would get in at like 11.
Speaker A
And it, it was just me and Michael the first couple of years.
Speaker A
And when Sean was There he was always stressed out about work and he was always yelling.
Speaker A
I shouldn't say always, but he was stressed out about work and he yelled a lot.
Speaker A
Especially like if he, he came home in between work and school and like, I didn't have dinner ready and I didn't feel like a person.
Speaker B
Did some of that feeling equate over to your view of God and how God saw you?
Speaker A
Yeah, well, I would say I wasn't really thinking a lot about God at that time.
Speaker A
Honestly.
Speaker A
I think during the first couple of years I was just in survival mode.
Speaker A
I know that I, I used to sing at church and I quit singing for probably five, six years.
Speaker A
I just kind of quit everything.
Speaker A
And I, you know, I got up when Michael got up and I went to sleep when Michael went to sleep and, and he, and I just hung out a lot.
Speaker A
Yeah, I was just existing.
Speaker B
Yeah, I'm just, I'm thinking of my pattern.
Speaker B
Sometimes in the past, for some reason, as men, we get in our heads this idea, whether it comes from society or churches or somewhere, but because of our, our basic desire and need to provide, we somehow a lot of times equate that with only like a physical provision.
Speaker B
Like I have to provide for my family with money or a house or fill in the blank.
Speaker B
And we miss the fact that so much of caring and providing for a family is spiritual, emotional, physical in the sense of physically being there.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
I think of some of the times during the time we were dating that I kind of had some struggles with that.
Speaker B
And there were times I was like, look, I don't make very much money right now.
Speaker B
Like, I'm just getting by, I'm paying my bills, not getting in any more debt.
Speaker B
And.
Speaker B
But you were very helpful in a lot of that and just reminding me that the provision is so much more than just money and things.
Speaker B
It's the things I was providing through being there and leading you spiritually and being open about things in my own life.
Speaker B
And so somehow we just get stuck on it being solely a physical provision of.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
Filling the bike.
Speaker A
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A
And, and Sean felt that he was a hard worker and he was incredibly intelligent and he, he felt like, you know, he had to finish school, he had to get a good paying job, he had to provide for his family.
Speaker A
He was an excellent financial provider for us.
Speaker A
You know, in, in the early years, we, we did, you know, have to pay our grocery bills with credit card because we, you know, we, we just didn't, you know, I, I did not work.
Speaker A
I stayed home with Michael and, and he was the sole provider.
Speaker A
And.
Speaker A
And so, you know, once we paid our bills, they're wasn't money for food.
Speaker A
And so we would.
Speaker A
We would buy things on credit card.
Speaker A
I think we had like a.
Speaker A
Like a $500 credit limit or maybe even like a $300 credit limit, something like that.
Speaker A
And then his grandmother, she would have us over for Sunday dinner every week, and we would take leftovers, and we would try to make those.
Speaker A
We would spread those leftovers out.
Speaker A
His mom took us out to eat a lot.
Speaker A
And.
Speaker A
And actually, I just thought about this.
Speaker A
His mom, actually.
Speaker A
So we just had one car.
Speaker A
And so a lot of times, like, unless I took him to work, I.
Speaker A
You know, I was at home with.
Speaker A
With no vehicle or no transportation.
Speaker A
And so a lot of times his mom would come and pick my Michael and.
Speaker A
And myself up, and she would take us out.
Speaker A
Like, we'd go thrift.
Speaker A
Short thrift store shopping.
Speaker A
You know, we'd go out to lunch.
Speaker A
And I think.
Speaker A
I think she realized more than I did, the isolation that I was experiencing, because she even would, like, talk to Sean several times about, you know, why do you feel the need to take so many classes and be gone every night from your wife and your son?
Speaker A
And she encouraged him not to do that.
Speaker A
And he.
Speaker A
Yeah, he.
Speaker A
He dismissed her and said, he's, you know, providing.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
I mean, within that first year of marriage, were there people that you felt like you could talk to or share those feelings with?
Speaker A
No.
Speaker A
No.
Speaker A
I wouldn't even have known what to share.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
Were there people that even noticed?
Speaker B
I mean, because.
Speaker B
Were you starting to stay home from church and you said you had stopped singing?
Speaker B
I mean, was that not something people had noticed?
Speaker A
I don't know.
Speaker A
I mean, if they did, no one said anything.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
I mean, his.
Speaker A
Again, his mom was really kind of the only one who reached out.
Speaker A
And I'm crying about that because.
Speaker A
That relationship ended up breaking and it was never restored.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
That's tough.
Speaker A
But she was like a second mother to me.
Speaker B
It just.
Speaker B
It breaks my heart that there's churches not recognizing people are missing.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
Or not involved like they used to.
Speaker B
Or fill in the blank.
Speaker B
And, man, it just.
Speaker B
It's become more of a burden to you and I more lately just because of some of the things we've been going through.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
With our.
Speaker B
From our previous church.
Speaker B
But it just, I think, has given us more of an awareness for people.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
So that they don't get lost in the shuffle.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
I.
Speaker A
Several years, even before you and I started dating, I just.
Speaker A
I got into this.
Speaker A
I don't want to call it a habit, but I felt like if someone came to my mind, I would just send them a text and say, you know, hey, I'm thinking about you.
Speaker A
I'm praying for you.
Speaker A
And then as you and I started getting to know each other, I realized that you did the same thing, you know, and you'd reach out to guys, and I don't think guys are very good at keeping up like that.
Speaker A
And.
Speaker A
But I always admired that about you, that you would reach out to a guy, and that's just like caring.
Speaker A
It's just like basic caring for people that I feel like we miss.
Speaker A
We lose touch of doing that in our distracted, busy lives.
Speaker A
But that's a sermon for another day.
Speaker B
Yeah, I'm just.
Speaker B
I'm just now thinking, like, that's an.
Speaker B
A whole nother episode.
Speaker B
And it just.
Speaker B
Something I don't understand because whether of culture or churches, again, I. I do not understand the idea of men not reaching out, because when you look at the scripture, the people, Jesus himself and the.
Speaker B
The.
Speaker B
The men he surrounded himself with, they were all very relational.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
And.
Speaker B
Yeah, it just.
Speaker B
I.
Speaker B
And when I have people tell me, oh, it's just.
Speaker B
It's just who we are as men.
Speaker B
I've had leaders tell me that before, and I'm like, I don't.
Speaker B
I think you're wrong.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
You really struggle with that.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
We could do an episode on that, too.
Speaker B
So.
Speaker B
All right, let's.
Speaker B
Let's fast forward a couple years.
Speaker B
You.
Speaker B
You kind of have this dysfunctional pattern continuing.
Speaker B
Was.
Speaker B
Was there any type of revealing moment for you?
Speaker B
Any type of specific moment where you just kind of realized that I just can't stay and do this anymore?
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
And it actually, honestly, I think I had kind of a nervous breakdown.
Speaker A
I'd had.
Speaker A
You know, I had our second son, Matthew, and I was at home with him, and I had.
Speaker A
We had this printer and some old printer paper that I was using, and I don't think it was the right kind of paper for that specific printer.
Speaker A
And so it ended up breaking or jamming or something.
Speaker A
I don't remember exactly what happened.
Speaker A
And Sean got so incredibly mad over this printer breaking, and it was my fault because I didn't use the right paper.
Speaker A
And I'm sure there were some names and some other accusations put in there.
Speaker A
I don't remember all the specifics.
Speaker A
I just remember the printer broke.
Speaker A
And I just remember that night just again, I was on the couch again, and I was crying, and I couldn't stop Crying.
Speaker A
And I cried, like, all night long and into the day.
Speaker A
And he finally called my mom.
Speaker A
And I don't remember, you know, what happened between he and my mom.
Speaker A
My mom ended up coming to my house, and they lived, like, two and a half hours away from where we were.
Speaker A
And she came and I just.
Speaker A
I couldn't stop crying.
Speaker A
I couldn't really talk.
Speaker A
I was just so miserable.
Speaker A
And I didn't know why.
Speaker A
I mean, I knew it because, you know, my husband wasn't kind to me, but I guess I just.
Speaker A
Yeah, I was just.
Speaker A
I was just existing.
Speaker A
I don't know how I made it through those years.
Speaker B
How many years was it.
Speaker B
Do you remember when you finally came to that realization?
Speaker A
It was seven years.
Speaker A
Okay, seven years.
Speaker A
We'd had two kids.
Speaker A
And there were a lot of great moments.
Speaker A
I think the good moments just kept me going for the next good moment.
Speaker A
But it was extreme highs and deep, deep lows.
Speaker A
But those highs were really great.
Speaker A
Like, he said he loved me, and I believed it.
Speaker A
And when he treated me well, he treated me really well.
Speaker B
And I feel like that.
Speaker B
That in itself, without a lot of the other stuff, is, I think, part of the reason why.
Speaker B
One of the reasons why it can be hard to leave.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
I have.
Speaker A
I have some, like, home movies from, like, smartphones just started, you know, coming out around that time.
Speaker A
And I have some movies of him and the boys.
Speaker A
And he was just so fun.
Speaker A
He was fun dad.
Speaker A
You know, let's take a pumpkin and blow it up and see what happens.
Speaker A
Let's, you know, let's try to kill ourselves and see, you know, he was very extreme when he was there.
Speaker A
It was just always intense.
Speaker A
Always intense.
Speaker A
And.
Speaker A
Yeah, that's the only way I know how to describe it.
Speaker A
It's.
Speaker A
It was survival mode, from one extreme to the other, and a roller coaster ride.
Speaker B
At that point when you had realized that you needed to leave.
Speaker B
How long.
Speaker B
How long was it from then leaving until.
Speaker B
How long did you leave for until you went back?
Speaker A
Um, it was just a couple weeks.
Speaker A
So my mom came and she picked, you know, me and Michael and Matthew up, and we went to my mom and dad's house to live.
Speaker A
And I didn't even really know how to explain what was happening.
Speaker A
I just knew that he treated me in ways that I didn't appreciate, and I was miserable and angry and.
Speaker A
And I didn't even really know if I loved him.
Speaker A
So the three of us went to stay with them and just that whole time did not.
Speaker A
I wouldn't.
Speaker A
I would not say it went the way that it should have gone for.
Speaker A
For someone saying the things that I was saying, and no one really knowing how to dig in or ask the right questions and find out, I guess, what's really happening, what's really going on.
Speaker A
We had one of our pastors.
Speaker A
Actually, two of our pastors called, and one of our pastors called.
Speaker A
And, you know, I mean, I shared with him that Sean had called me names.
Speaker A
And I don't really remember there being any kind of.
Speaker A
I don't want to use the word investigation, but I guess, like, investigation with Sean, like, okay, why are you calling your wife names?
Speaker A
Why are you yelling at her and cussing at her?
Speaker A
And, you know, but.
Speaker A
But I shared like, okay, yeah, he.
Speaker A
He calls me names and.
Speaker A
And I don't like that.
Speaker A
And I think it was just kind of.
Speaker A
I felt like it was just kind of like they just.
Speaker A
They.
Speaker A
They told him, well, don't call her names.
Speaker A
And like, maybe he just needed to, you know, understand that, like, maybe that he just needed, like, some behavior modification.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
Versus.
Speaker A
There was a pattern of, like, manipulation and control and abusive, like, you know, power over that.
Speaker A
His style of relating to me and even relating to the boys was abusive and controlling and.
Speaker A
And manipulative.
Speaker B
Yeah, I'm very familiar with that style of pastoring.
Speaker B
I have another family member who.
Speaker B
This was years ago, but she was part of a very conservative independent fundamental Baptist church in Wisconsin.
Speaker B
And I'm not going to say their name because a lot of people would know.
Speaker B
Would know their name, but she was part of their church.
Speaker B
She taught at their school.
Speaker B
And my uncle at the time, her abuse had gotten so bad that they one night had to call the police because he almost killed her.
Speaker B
And even after all that, the pastors and the deacons of that church and their wives all told her that she had to go back to him because it was the.
Speaker B
What the Bible said.
Speaker B
So it's just very.
Speaker B
Yeah, it's tough because I don't see that anywhere in the Bible.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
And, yeah, I. I just don't think people either they're not equipped to handle it or they don't care.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
And I think for these pastors, I think actually in this situation, they actually did care.
Speaker A
I just don't think they were equipped.
Speaker A
Yeah, they gave him a book called Imperative People, and they gave me a book called the Anger Workbook.
Speaker A
I think they're actually by the same guy.
Speaker A
But basically, we had a marriage.
Speaker A
We had marriage issues that we needed to work on.
Speaker A
There was no addressing, like, some serious heart issues.
Speaker A
That Shawn had.
Speaker A
And I think that makes me more sad than anything else is, like, if.
Speaker A
If they had taken the time to really dig into or.
Speaker A
Or maybe even understand root issues and sin patterns, I don't know, would things be different?
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
And I. I can understand that side of it as well, because I know in my first marriage, when I.
Speaker B
The issues I was having, we were thrown into marriage counseling, and nothing was ever really done to address the.
Speaker B
The root issues of why.
Speaker B
Why I was sinning and choosing the sin I was choosing.
Speaker B
It was all about what we could do to make our marriage better.
Speaker B
And when you stack that on top of somebody who's.
Speaker B
In my case, was not.
Speaker B
I could probably say I wasn't really in a place where I even cared about dealing with the root issues.
Speaker B
It was just probably.
Speaker B
I would say it was probably just like a band aid.
Speaker A
Right.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
Because if you have two broken people and just try to put them together, it doesn't make a whole.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
And especially if you have two people, one person isn't following God, which I would say, I don't think that Sean was at this time.
Speaker A
So I was.
Speaker A
I was back in church.
Speaker A
I was back singing and on the worship team, and I was in, you know, women's Bible studies.
Speaker A
But Sean was.
Speaker A
He was really struggling in his faith, and none of our problems, I don't really feel like he owned them.
Speaker A
Like, he would say he had an anger problem, and it was, like, justified.
Speaker A
Like, oh, well, don't do things to make him angry.
Speaker B
So it was more focused on, like, not the root of the issues, but the fruits.
Speaker A
Right, Right.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
Like behavior modification.
Speaker A
Like, okay, well, if he has an anger problem, well, don't do things to make him angry.
Speaker A
And he had.
Speaker A
He had a lot of dialogue on respect and how I did not respect him.
Speaker A
And I needed to respect him and I needed to submit.
Speaker A
And it was like, a mandate to submit to him.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
Which isn't submission.
Speaker A
But there was.
Speaker A
You know, there were other patterns of coercive control, and I didn't know what was happening at the time.
Speaker A
I. I couldn't name it or explain it, really.
Speaker A
The only thing I could really point at was, yeah, he called me names, and it was just kind of glossed over.
Speaker A
Well, don't call her names.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
I mean, so that in my head, I get this picture of, like, it's pretty much like you driving down the road and your check engine light comes on, and you just take a hammer to your computer system and smash it and be like, oh, the light's off.
Speaker B
It's fixed.
Speaker B
When really that's.
Speaker B
That's only taking care of the warning, you know, it's not taking care of the.
Speaker B
The actual problem in the engine.
Speaker B
And.
Speaker B
Yeah, you're still going to have problems.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
And hopefully, you know, I mean, fast forward now to, you know, 20, 23.
Speaker A
Hopefully.
Speaker A
Those pastors, I mean, they were older back then.
Speaker A
I'm not even really sure if any of them are still alive.
Speaker A
But with the things that we know.
Speaker B
Now,.
Speaker A
I hope that their reaction to other people in that type of situation would be different or was different.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
Because I really do think that they cared.
Speaker A
And.
Speaker A
And they even did.
Speaker A
You know, they even did pastoral counseling at that church and didn't charge anybody anything.
Speaker A
You know, I left Sean and they called me and they, you know, talked to me several times and they wanted to know what was going on.
Speaker A
I just don't think they really understood the depth of brokenness that Sean was working with.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
So after those couple weeks that you had left the first time, what was your thinking process like?
Speaker B
Was there, like a.
Speaker B
Some type of light bulb or moment that you were like, okay, I gotta go back?
Speaker B
And then what was that like after you went back?
Speaker A
So I. I was actually guilted into going back or, like, religiously pressured, I would say.
Speaker A
And I don't know if it was just, again, kind of like a societal pressure that I felt or.
Speaker A
At the time, I felt like it was God telling me to go back.
Speaker A
But I was visiting a church, and there was a lady that was leading worship, and she.
Speaker A
I went to charismatic churches, and so she, like, gave kind of like a prophetic message during the service.
Speaker A
And she said that there was somebody there who was choosing Ishmael over Isaac, and that that individual needed to choose.
Speaker A
Choose life over death, that Ishmael was death and Isaac was life.
Speaker A
And I was already feeling pressure from Sean because, you know, I left and I was wrong for leaving.
Speaker A
He loved me.
Speaker A
And then.
Speaker A
And then, yeah, just.
Speaker A
Just from kind of everyone else, just kind of like, you know, just saying, well, just, you know, everybody knows he's got an anger problem.
Speaker A
It's not that big a deal.
Speaker A
And so I. I felt like God was telling me I needed to go back to Sean.
Speaker A
And, you know, whether that prophetic word was for me or not, I don't know.
Speaker A
It could have been, because I don't.
Speaker A
I don't regret going back to him.
Speaker A
And I believe that anything that we do in faith, like, anything that we do, trusting God, like, he doesn't waste any of those moments.
Speaker A
Like, he Sees them all.
Speaker A
He counts them all.
Speaker A
And I think that he honored that.
Speaker A
He honored me.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
Even though I didn't know I was going back into an abusive situation, I felt like it was the right thing to do.
Speaker A
And so I went back.
Speaker B
What do you feel like it was that kept you there that second time?
Speaker A
My faith.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
I thought the whole time that something was wrong with me, that I needed to pray more, that I needed to read my Bible more, that I needed to be a better Christian, and then I would love my husband, because I knew at that time, you know, seven years in, I knew I didn't love Shawn.
Speaker A
And I stayed because I thought it was the right thing to do.
Speaker A
And so.
Speaker A
Well, if this is the right thing to do, then I just need to do the right thing regardless of how I feel about it.
Speaker A
And the feelings will come later, or maybe they won't.
Speaker A
I don't know.
Speaker A
Feelings don't really matter.
Speaker A
So I will say that that actually was taught from the pulpit at the church that we attended, that you do the right thing regardless of your feelings.
Speaker A
Now, you know, in my particular case, you know what that right thing to do, I don't know that anyone ever said one way or the other.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
But I felt like.
Speaker A
Well, I didn't want to be married to him.
Speaker A
I didn't.
Speaker A
I was miserable.
Speaker A
I didn't like him.
Speaker A
I didn't love him.
Speaker A
And I just.
Speaker A
I felt like I had to white knuckle it.
Speaker A
I felt like that was the right thing to do.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
And I think you made a good point.
Speaker B
That depends on how they define the right thing, because, yeah, for my aunt, according to them, it was the right thing to stay with her husband, even if he killed her.
Speaker B
And one of the pastor's wives even told my aunt, if that's what happens, then you'll get a bigger crown in heaven because of it.
Speaker B
And I think it's just doing a detriment to.
Speaker B
To people in that.
Speaker B
And.
Speaker B
And whether.
Speaker B
Whether it was this aspect of it was preached or not to you in your situation.
Speaker B
Like I feel a lot of times.
Speaker B
Well, you had mentioned the.
Speaker B
The.
Speaker B
The aspect of needing to be a better wife, needing to pray more, and that would change.
Speaker B
Sean, I don't know if that was preached directly or not to you from people, but I know, like, in my sister's situation, there were people in her church telling her that if she just prayed more, if she just submitted more, loved him more, gave him more sex or whatever, you know, fill in the blank, then that would turn his heart to Jesus.
Speaker B
And.
Speaker A
Yeah, I got that advice, too.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
And it's doing a detriment to victims of abuse, and it's also taking the responsibility off of the abuser to come to terms with their own sin and excusing it.
Speaker A
Right.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
Well, indirectly enables abusers.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
And then it turns those who are experiencing abuse into further objects.
Speaker A
Like, I'm.
Speaker A
I just solely exist to make my husband happy, and I don't have any rights or feelings for myself, and everything I do revolves around how happy he is.
Speaker A
No wonder I didn't feel like a person.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
And that's what I was about to say.
Speaker B
I mean, in one breath, we have no problem saying that we believe men and women are created in God's image, but then we feel like we get to define what that image looks like for the woman.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
And we completely miss everything God tells us in scripture about women and who they are.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
In God's image.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
And I think.
Speaker A
I think maybe for.
Speaker A
For you and like the churches that you grew up in, you probably have a lot more examples than.
Speaker A
And first knowledge of this than I did.
Speaker A
Like, as far as I know, I. I was the only one I knew who experienced this, and I didn't even know, like, what to call it.
Speaker A
And.
Speaker A
And I feel like if anyone had, like, if.
Speaker A
If Sean had ever hit me physically, I feel like everyone would have said, you know, you can leave him.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
So was there ever a moment for you when you knew he was abusive?
Speaker B
What did that look like for you?
Speaker B
Like, how.
Speaker B
When were you able to put language to that?
Speaker A
So, like, we're.
Speaker A
We're.
Speaker A
We are now in, like, year 14, 15, 16 of marriage, I think.
Speaker A
A friend of mine, her pastor, she was a worship leader at a church, and her pastor that she worked for, he subscribed to this podcast or.
Speaker A
No, it wasn't a podcast back then.
Speaker A
I guess it was just like, articles that.
Speaker A
Blogs that someone was writing, and they were incredibly helpful.
Speaker A
They were, you know, discipleship blogs, how to live more godly centered lives, more focused on Christ and the Spirit.
Speaker A
And she was getting a lot of value out of these articles.
Speaker A
And so she would send me the articles to encourage me.
Speaker A
And.
Speaker A
And I started reading.
Speaker A
I started reading these articles, and there was one writer, Brandy Huerta, I. I started reading her article specifically, and she wrote a lot on merit, abuse and marriage, and especially what that looks like for a Christian woman, because she didn't think that enough pastors and churches had just a real robust theology on how we can serve women in abusive marriages, especially women who are Christian and think, you know, it's the right thing to do to stay in a marriage.
Speaker A
And when I first started reading her articles, all I could do was, like, cry.
Speaker A
I couldn't really define what was happening, but I knew that there's something was wrong.
Speaker A
And.
Speaker A
And these articles just broke me and disturbed me in a way that I couldn't really put my finger on.
Speaker A
But I kept reading them and I kept just kind of exploring the thought process and the language around how Christ doesn't break a tender reed and just the gentleness of Christ and something about that Christ.
Speaker A
I was like, I don't.
Speaker A
I don't know that Christ.
Speaker A
Like, I'm a Christian, but I feel like just this hamster on a wheel.
Speaker A
Just perform, perform, perform.
Speaker A
And, you know, the hurdles get higher and higher that I have to, you know, jump over and jump through.
Speaker A
And, you know, the double standard that Sean had, it just.
Speaker A
It was so low when it came to what he did, but so high when it came to what I did.
Speaker A
And then it just increased higher and higher and higher.
Speaker A
And I just.
Speaker A
I wanted.
Speaker A
I wanted relief.
Speaker A
I wanted the gospel.
Speaker A
Like, I knew the gospel, but I didn't feel free.
Speaker B
Yeah,.
Speaker A
We tried marriage counseling, which was a joke.
Speaker A
He.
Speaker A
At this time, he had decided he was no longer a Christian, and so he refused to go to a Christian counselor.
Speaker A
And I was hoping.
Speaker A
I was just hoping that this counselor, just the secular counselor, would call him out for the way he treated me.
Speaker A
And she didn't do that.
Speaker A
And I felt hopeless.
Speaker A
I felt utterly hopeless.
Speaker A
And so I just kind of ended the marriage counseling because I just realized, you know, this is just a sham.
Speaker A
Like, he just sat in there the whole time for 50 minutes and just complained about all the things that I did wrong and, you know, how awful I was.
Speaker A
And she sat there and listened to him.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
He was very charismatic and compelling, and I think that's why people didn't think there was anything wrong with him.
Speaker A
He was very intelligent and well spoken, and I didn't stick up for myself because I was just so exhausted and tired and I didn't think anyone would believe me.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
So not only.
Speaker B
Not only are you wrestling with your own emotions and feelings about everything that's going on, it's being compounded by other people who don't know any better or not taking the time to know better.
Speaker B
Like you said, he was charismatic, well liked, which is a lot of times the.
Speaker B
The description that people use for people who are abusive and victims who come out of abuse often say that.
Speaker B
And to me, I just.
Speaker B
It makes me wonder, like, what would it have looked like for one person, just one person to say, this is not okay.
Speaker B
You need.
Speaker B
You need to go.
Speaker A
Well, thankfully, I did get that person.
Speaker A
Yeah, so.
Speaker B
So, yeah, let's talk about that part of it, because eventually you did leave Sean for a final time.
Speaker B
So kind of walk us through that and how that came about with this person finally speaking into your life.
Speaker A
So I kept reading these articles, and I tried counseling, and I kind of ended that because I was just like, this is just a waste of an hour where he gets to complain about everything that's wrong with me, and he gets to.
Speaker A
He gets somebody's, you know, empathetic ear.
Speaker A
And then on the way home from the counseling, he gets to tell me, you know, all the things that are wrong with me.
Speaker A
And.
Speaker A
And he feels.
Speaker A
He feels justified, and he feels better, and I feel like crap.
Speaker A
So I ended those sessions, just kind of like saying, like.
Speaker A
Just kind of, like, lying to her, like, yep, we're good now.
Speaker A
Thanks.
Speaker A
And.
Speaker A
And then I started counseling with Brandy Puerta because she also offered counseling.
Speaker A
And our first session with her, I felt like I finally heard the gospel.
Speaker A
She said, I'm concerned about you.
Speaker A
Like, yeah, you can stay, but what is this doing to your health?
Speaker A
And she didn't know anything about my health issues then.
Speaker A
I couldn't keep anything down anymore.
Speaker A
I threw up everything.
Speaker A
And I was so incredibly faithless.
Speaker A
Like, I still had my faith that I had as a young girl, and I believed in a good God, but I just.
Speaker A
I didn't know where he was, and.
Speaker A
My health wasn't good.
Speaker A
Shawn really wasn't there for me.
Speaker A
I had to have several medical procedures that I knew I couldn't count on him to go with me.
Speaker A
And I remember one procedure I was going in and I was doing.
Speaker A
I was getting a CT scan, and I was by myself.
Speaker A
And I remember thinking, this.
Speaker A
This is the rest of my life if I stay.
Speaker A
And.
Speaker A
And so, on one hand, I had that choice.
Speaker A
Like, Brandy said, well, you can stay or you can leave.
Speaker A
He said, you know the passage in the Bible where it says, if you leave, then leave.
Speaker A
Just don't get married again.
Speaker A
And so, funny enough, part of me, like, felt like that was kind of like a punishment from God.
Speaker A
Like, oh, well, just because he's abusive and he's a jerk, I can't ever get married again and find true love.
Speaker A
And I was kind of mad about it.
Speaker A
And so.
Speaker A
So some of the reason why I stayed was because I was mad at God.
Speaker A
Like.
Speaker A
Like, how does he get to and decide who I can and can't love after?
Speaker A
This man hasn't ever loved me.
Speaker A
But again, it was kind of like those good times made up for the bad times.
Speaker A
And then there was this, too.
Speaker A
I actually grew to love him.
Speaker A
All of that time I spent praying to love him, I actually grew to love that man with a Godly love.
Speaker A
I'll say.
Speaker A
The irony of it, right?
Speaker A
But that's.
Speaker A
That's what God does.
Speaker A
He.
Speaker A
Even in bad situations, he makes something good come out of it.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
But I finally got to the point where in Brandy and in our conversations, I began to see the God again that I remembered as a child.
Speaker A
And I remembered that he was kind and he was good and that he wasn't trying to punish me.
Speaker A
And so whatever he had in his word for me, I began to think of it as, no, this is my protection.
Speaker A
This isn't a punishment.
Speaker A
This is my protection.
Speaker A
And she encouraged me to reach out to a friend.
Speaker A
So the same friend that had shared these articles with me that didn't know anything about the abuse.
Speaker A
She was shocked at first when I first told her, and she even kind of, like, didn't really believe me.
Speaker A
And she was kind of like, well, you know, maybe how you respond to him isn't so good or something, you know?
Speaker A
And I went back to Brandi and I said, yeah.
Speaker A
She kind of said, you know, this, and.
Speaker A
And Brandi said, okay, go back to her again and tell her a little bit more.
Speaker A
And.
Speaker A
And Brandy Light didn't give me any kind of, like, promise, you know, that I was ever going to be believed.
Speaker A
But I think she felt like if I took a chance once and shared a little bit, I should go back again and share a little bit more.
Speaker A
And so I went back and I shared a little more, and my friend was just shocked and grieved for me.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
She felt bad for me.
Speaker A
No one had ever felt bad for me before.
Speaker A
And then she felt horrible because she thought she knew Sean.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
And she was like, oh, my gosh, he's a master manipulator.
Speaker A
And so she started reading up on how to help me.
Speaker A
And she even, like, got in touch with Brandy herself, and she was like, oh, my gosh, I feel terrible.
Speaker A
I told her to, you know, initiate intimacy, you know, all the things that I had been told, and never really, really investigating what's happening in this marriage, just assuming that I knew the answer.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
And Brandi gave her some advice, and one of the advice that she gave me, and she gave my Friend was encourage dawn not to go back until there is marked repentance, a marked pattern of repentance.
Speaker A
But until then, she can stay away from him for as long as she wants because Brandy said, I really do believe her life is in danger.
Speaker A
So, yeah, to make a long story short, leading up to, like, the day that I finally left, I started sticking up for myself more.
Speaker A
I started becoming my own person again and saying, no, I don't want to do that.
Speaker A
And he didn't like that.
Speaker A
And he tried to control me with.
Speaker A
By becoming angry and.
Speaker A
And big and loud and.
Speaker A
October 1, 2017.
Speaker A
He'd never hit me before, but I stood my ground.
Speaker A
And that day, I. I was not going to, you know, submit.
Speaker A
I use that word loosely.
Speaker A
I was not going to submit to what he wanted me to do.
Speaker A
And I knew that he was going to hit me.
Speaker A
And so I. I left.
Speaker A
Like, it was like I. I needed it to escalate to that, I guess, for my own confirmation and validation.
Speaker A
I don't know if.
Speaker A
I don't know if I should have let it go that much, you know, but it's like I needed something.
Speaker A
I needed, like, a final straw, and I got it, and I left and I told my friend and I told Brandy, and Brandi basically said, you know, well, this is not going to get any better.
Speaker A
And it didn't.
Speaker A
It was awful.
Speaker A
It was absolutely awful.
Speaker A
And as much as I did not want to be with him, and I was even scared to go back, and.
Speaker A
And I took the verse where it says, you can leave, just don't marry anybody else.
Speaker A
And.
Speaker A
And I said, gladly, gladly.
Speaker A
I will never marry again if I can be free from him.
Speaker A
Thank you, Lord.
Speaker A
Thank you, Lord, for providing this for my protection and saying I don't have to stay with him.
Speaker A
Thank you, Jesus.
Speaker A
I'm taking it to the bank.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
But after I left, it just.
Speaker A
Oh, my gosh, it was awful.
Speaker A
He would constantly text me and threaten me and.
Speaker A
And do it in very elusive ways so that it wasn't.
Speaker A
I couldn't outright bring something to the police and say he threatened my life.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
And he.
Speaker A
I found out later on he had put, like, a GPS tracking system in my car.
Speaker A
And, like, he knew, Like, I. I thought.
Speaker A
Naively, I thought that he didn't know where I was staying, and he did.
Speaker A
And so I even thought during that time it would be easier to go back.
Speaker A
Like, I know what I'm going back to.
Speaker A
I handled him before.
Speaker A
I can do it again.
Speaker A
But again, my friend Andrea and Randy kept reminding me, if there's not marked.
Speaker A
A long pattern of marked repentance.
Speaker A
Don't go back because it is going to get worse.
Speaker A
If you go back, like you think it's bad now, it's gonna get worse.
Speaker A
And I think about.
Speaker A
Like, we think that we can control things, like, you know, even, even a sin pattern in our own life.
Speaker A
Like, we think we have control over it, and we really don't.
Speaker A
If we're given over to sin or if someone else is given over to sin, they are in bondage, they are in slavery.
Speaker A
It.
Speaker A
And it is not going to get easier.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
And I'm.
Speaker A
I'm just.
Speaker A
I'm so grateful for those two women in my life.
Speaker A
And there were other women too, along the way who gave me a place to stay.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
It takes a village, because I. I didn't think I was worth it, but they did.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
And sometimes that's all it takes is one person.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
I mean, before I could even marry you, it had to be approved through Andrea.
Speaker B
So even to this day, you guys are still good friends.
Speaker B
And she was even in our, in our wedding.
Speaker B
And I appreciate her being that for you and that outlet for you.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
And, and, and add to that now, Stacy.
Speaker A
Stacy came after the fact, but.
Speaker A
Yeah, you had to be approved by Stacy.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
Andrea.
Speaker A
And.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
Well, we've unpacked a lot and it's been.
Speaker B
It's been heavy stuff, but it's been.
Speaker B
I think it's been good.
Speaker B
So as we think about closing out the time, what kind of thoughts would you close out with as far as let's make this two different pieces of advice for those one, who are maybe still stuck in an abusive situation and are.
Speaker B
And are trying to get to that place where they can leave, and they're wrestling through that.
Speaker B
And then the second piece of that is, what would you say to those on the outside who maybe are in the life of the victim and are trying to sort through what they're hearing?
Speaker B
And what kind of advice would you also speak to them?
Speaker A
I think something that maybe pastors are afraid of.
Speaker A
I don't know.
Speaker A
I just.
Speaker A
Comments that I've overheard throughout the years.
Speaker A
I think they are afraid to advise someone to.
Speaker A
To leave someone else.
Speaker A
You know, pastors just really don't like marriages falling apart.
Speaker A
And to that, I would say someone who is not invested in their marriage.
Speaker A
There's not really anything that you can say to make them stay.
Speaker A
They're given over to their selfish desires.
Speaker A
So a fear.
Speaker A
I just, I don't know that it is a valid enough Fear to tell everyone to stay without really fully questioning what's going on.
Speaker A
And I say that to say that a victim is never going to fully tell you the truth, number one, because they don't.
Speaker A
Many, many times they don't even realize what is happening to them, their own selves.
Speaker A
So how are they going to tell someone else?
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
And then secondly, even if they know what is happening in their mind, there are more and there are more reasons and better reasons to stay than there are to leave.
Speaker A
And that's part of the reason why they are being controlled and abused is because their abuser is holding that over them.
Speaker A
In their mind, they don't have permission to do anything else.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
So one person giving someone permission to, yeah, you can leave, just don't marry someone else.
Speaker A
That can be incredibly freeing for someone, especially someone who's gotten to the point where they would rather stay single for the rest of their lives than spend another day feeling the way they feel.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
And I feel.
Speaker B
I feel like sometimes it's just somebody needing somebody to care enough to tell them that it's okay to leave.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
Because like you said earlier, there's so many things going on that they don't even know how to put words to.
Speaker B
So for someone just to come along and say, look, this is not okay.
Speaker B
You need to leave.
Speaker B
And that doesn't necessarily always mean a divorce.
Speaker B
Right.
Speaker B
Like you were saying, if there had been any marked repentance and lifestyle change, I think that's an indicator, you know, that, you know, maybe their life has changed.
Speaker B
But I feel like so many times it's either the advice that's given is either you have to go back or you have to divorce them.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
And I don't necessarily think that there's anything wrong with a time of separation.
Speaker B
Like, to jump to one extreme, to divorce isn't necessarily always the case.
Speaker B
Sometimes leaving can look like a time of separation to even see if that person's life is going to change.
Speaker A
I think one of the compounding factors is if there, you know, is some type of extra, extramarital affair, whether it be like an emotional affair or physical affair.
Speaker A
And that can just.
Speaker A
That can just compound things.
Speaker A
It can be like, oh, well, I'm.
Speaker A
You know, it can seem like a way out, you know, someone.
Speaker A
Someone better.
Speaker A
But again, that's why in the scripture, he has that as our protection.
Speaker A
You know, honestly, you might just be really bad at picking out someone to be with.
Speaker A
God's just like, okay, you just need to slow down.
Speaker A
Yeah, slow down.
Speaker A
Let that one settle for A little bit.
Speaker A
Maybe you get back together with that one.
Speaker A
Maybe, maybe you stay single.
Speaker A
That's not such a bad thing if it's, if it's your peace with Christ.
Speaker A
Sean was a barrier to the gospel for me, and God hated that.
Speaker A
And if we have people who are married but don't know Christ, what a tragedy.
Speaker A
Rather they be married and divorced five times over and know Christ.
Speaker A
Getting a divorce is not the end of the world, not knowing Christ.
Speaker A
So first I just, I feel like we have to put some things into perspective.
Speaker A
Like if someone's going to leave, they're going to leave.
Speaker A
There's nothing you can say, you can say to make them stay so we don't have to worry about, oh, you know, love your husband, you know, love your wife.
Speaker A
If they had an ounce of humility, they'd already be doing that.
Speaker B
Yeah,.
Speaker A
And maybe I'm oversimplifying it and, and we should admonish one another, but I feel like that admonishing, there's some intentionality, like, you know, you and I kind of got, got off on to kind of like getting into other people's lives, you know, a little bit more like that admonishing has to happen like way before you have two individuals who are just ready to call it quits.
Speaker B
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker A
And, yeah, and again, like a little bit of separation sometimes in some cases can kind of help give some perspective and some space.
Speaker A
And you encourage them not to be, you know, hanging out with, you know, the opposite sex or even someone who maybe, you know, struggles with same sex attraction.
Speaker A
You know, you just be very careful about your relationships.
Speaker A
Just honestly, any relationship in general, just be careful who's speaking into your life.
Speaker B
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker B
And, and I kind of want to add to that piece of it with the church side because I feel like this is very important that somebody needs to hear.
Speaker B
And I have no problem saying this publicly, but if you're part of a church, if you're listening to this episode and you're part of a church that's telling you to go back to your abusive spouse, you were in a toxic church and you need to leave, kind of the more and more we've interacted with people who are coming out of abuse cultures and relationships, we've kind of heard that more and more where people are being told by their pastors and leaders, you just need to go back and fix it.
Speaker B
And I would say that's a toxic church.
Speaker B
And we wrestled with that for a long time because we had been seeing situations at the church we were at where that was happening and we didn't understand it and come to find out through some of our own situations, it was toxic.
Speaker B
I feel like that's an abuse of leadership.
Speaker B
And you were, as a victim, you were in a.
Speaker B
Not only an abusive relationship, but a tox under toxic leadership that is encouraging the abuse to continue.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
Enabling it.
Speaker A
And I would say, I would even go to the point of saying it's not a church, it's not Christ's church, where a church is supposed to spiritually protect and care for its members.
Speaker A
And if they're not caring for every member of the body, even the individuals who are being coercively controlled, who don't really have a say, who can't exercise their own willpower, I'm more concerned about the spiritual state of that person than their marriage.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
And I just like, we have to get over ourselves.
Speaker A
We have to get over our man made institutions.
Speaker A
Is marriage good?
Speaker A
Yes.
Speaker A
Does God love marriage?
Speaker A
Yes.
Speaker A
Does God hate divorce?
Speaker A
Yes.
Speaker A
Does God hate abuse?
Speaker A
Yes.
Speaker A
All of that is true.
Speaker A
What he loves more is people made in his image.
Speaker B
Exactly.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
So good.
Speaker B
So many episodes just pop up in our conversation and I have to make notes.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
So what, what hope would you give to those who are maybe in the middle of it, they're in the thick of it and they don't know if they should stay or leave.
Speaker A
It is not going to be easy.
Speaker A
And especially, you know, if it's it.
Speaker A
If it's gotten to the point that it, you know, it got with mine where I honestly believed that I was going to wake up in a hospital or dead and never see my boys again.
Speaker A
We aren't.
Speaker A
We aren't given a tomorrow.
Speaker A
We don't know the number of our days.
Speaker A
I just kept doing what I thought God wanted me to do and I trusted him with the outcome.
Speaker A
Not knowing if he would allow Sean to take my life or not.
Speaker A
I wasn't given that guarantee.
Speaker A
I had to keep preaching to myself that it was better for me to fear God and do what I felt like God wanted me to do than to fear man.
Speaker A
And at times that meant not going back to Sean because I felt like, okay, I'm.
Speaker A
I'm pretty sure that this is not what God would want me to do.
Speaker A
And this choice is really more in fear of Sean than it is of God.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
And sing a lot of worship songs.
Speaker A
So I sang so many worship songs.
Speaker A
And interestingly enough, music reaches all kind of centers in the brain, including the part where trauma is stored and how wonderful and kind it is.
Speaker A
Of God to give us a weapon against lies in that way where so many times I felt like I wouldn't know truth if it slapped me in the face because I.
Speaker A
My truth had been like rewritten so many times.
Speaker A
But when I sang those worship songs, I really felt like I was taking captive those thoughts, those obtrusive thoughts, those shame filled thoughts, the.
Speaker A
The words that had been spoken over me, the lies.
Speaker A
And I was singing God's truth about me over myself.
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And so I. I refound my identity in him through those worship songs.
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And I just kept living out the Bible saying, all right, you know, I trusted him with this.
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I'm going to keep trusting him for the next thing.
Speaker A
And I'm alive today.
Speaker B
That's good.
Speaker B
We have unpacked so much and I think it went longer than I expected.
Speaker B
Yeah, I just appreciate your willingness to share that and just praying that it helps people gain a better understanding of wherever they are in their journey through this, whether as a victim or a family member or someone in the church looking for ways to help and.
Speaker A
Or even if you find yourself that maybe you might be abusive yourself.
Speaker A
Yeah, there's hope for you too.
Speaker A
Sean, as far as I know, never repented.
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And he ended up dying in despair, thinking that it was better to leave this life.
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And I feel like if he just turned to Christ and called on his name.
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Christ never puts to shame anybody who calls on his name.
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There is hope for you too.
Speaker A
And I've forgiven Sean.
Speaker A
Even though he's no longer alive, I've forgiven him.
Speaker A
There are so many things that I am grieved about in his life that I feel like if something had gone differently, maybe things wouldn't have ended so tragically.
Speaker A
And it doesn't have to be like that.
Speaker A
If we turn and we repent, it doesn't have to be like that.
Speaker B
Yeah, I can testify to that.
Speaker A
Yes, you can.
Speaker B
All right, well, we appreciate you guys joining us on this episode, and be sure you go and subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen, but also make sure you sign up for our email list so you can get updates to new episodes, blog posts and newsletters and all the sorts.
Speaker B
All right, thanks for joining us.
Speaker B
We'll see you next time.
Speaker A
Bye.
Speaker B
Thanks for tuning in to the Prodigal Journey, where we celebrate Christ's power through our weakness.
Speaker B
This podcast is available on all major platforms, so be sure you go and subscribe or leave us a review.
Speaker B
Also, if you'd like to reach out, you can reach me, Ben, at the prodigal journey.com that's Ben at the prodigal journey.com tune in next time to the Prodigal Journey.
Speaker B
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