TPJ06 | Loving A Prodigal Child; A Parent's Perspective | 6.6.21

Foreign.

Hello, and welcome to the Prodigal Journey, where we celebrate Christ's power through our weakness.On today's episode, I sit down and have an honest conversation with my parents, and we talked through some of the things that they struggled through and felt during the last couple years, and just a lot that had to do with some of the consequences from my sinful choices. You know, when we think about our choices that we make, sometimes the consequences are far more reaching than just the consequences that affect us.So we talk a little bit about how it affected my parents from that aspect. So you definitely don't want to miss this. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back to talk to my parents.

And the sun lifted up her eyes dying for the sins of every man. It is done.

Conquered on the cross through the son of God, the son of man.

Mom and dad, welcome to the Prodigal Journey. Thanks for joining us today. How are you doing?

Great. Thank you for having us.

All right, so we just want to walk through some stuff on this episode. I know the last couple episodes, I've talked a little bit about just some of my story, and I did an interview with a different podcast as well.So we just kind of want to look at some of that and take the conversation a little bit farther and just talk to you guys about some of what you've learned through this whole process. And hopefully it'll be helpful to other parents as well who might be walking through something like that.So let's just kind of start with a little background. I know I've talked a couple times before about how we kind of grew up in a legalistic church culture.And how do you feel it affected you both, not only as parents, but as parents who were in the ministry?

I think from my perspective, there's always been this unwritten and unspoken rule that pastors, children were supposed to be really good, perfect. Like, you live in the pastor's house. You should never do anything wrong.And I think that type of culture lulls you into thinking that because you have your children in Christian school and they go to Sunday school and they go to church and youth group, that everything is okay. It makes you not aware and not. You don't pay attention to signs that maybe things are not okay.It's almost like having cancer and you don't know you have it. You. You don't look at what might really be going on in the lives of your children.You're just putting them into all the things, and you just expect them to be getting the training that you want them to have.

Yeah, I think along the same lines that you think that if your kids, you know, do this, don't do that, and abide by certain rules and regulations that somehow everything's going to turn out all right and they're not going to have any difficulties.And being in the ministry, it was even harder, as my wife said, that you're kids were looked at as needed to be perfect and abide by all the rules and regulations.It was a culture that I grew up in, probably from my middle school on through college and even further that, you know, there was a certain set of rules and regulations you have to live by. And even though we say we don't live under the law, we establish our own kind of rules and regulations that we expect everybody to live by.And, and if they do that, then somehow they'll gain favor with God and everything will be all right in their life.

Yeah, and, and one thing I think that's.That was really hard to reconcile, I think, was that I don't ever remember a time where that came through in your preaching as far as that, that legalistic rule aspect. So from that aspect, I don't think it was ever really from the preaching side of it, but it just seemed to be the culture of the church.And I mean, how, how was that hard to fight against?

Oh, it's just hard to fight against because, you know, in, in the circles everybody was, you know, kind of looking at you. You didn't really feel like you had the freedom to do different things because it would go outside of your.Of the culture that you were in at the time. So you, you know, had to have your service a certain way, had to do things certain way.You know, you had to make sure your kids did certain things because it really was under. Really put yourself under bondage more than a freedom to do what you, you know, knew you were supposed to do.

Yeah, let's fast forward a little bit to. To, I guess around 2011 and just kind of talk through that a little bit. After you guys had found out that I was.Had gotten into some trouble and was facing some consequences from my sinful choices, what were some things that you guys experienced during that time initially and some of the feelings you guys were having?

Well, I think you feel a great overwhelming sense of guilt, like you've done something as a parent that pushed your child to do something sinful and to make wrong choices. And, and then also there's a sense in that culture that you just circle the wagons and you want to protect them.Because you don't want people to judge them. You don't want people to find out. And I think that at the very beginning was how we handled that.We tried to deal with you, and yet we didn't talk about it with anyone. We just, you know, we didn't want that judgment to fall on you. Like here you done these things.But let's not go outside of that and let anyone in to that situation.

Yeah. I think for me it was probably four different things that I've had to work through and experience.One being, first of all, denial, just to deny the fact that in even happen. And then which led to probably a sense of feeling of failure as a parent, wondering how in the world could this happen.We made sure our kids did all these things and didn't do certain things and didn't have things that they weren't supposed to do. And yet when it happens, it's kind of you sense like, where did I fail? Where did I go wrong?And then from there it probably went into a little bit of, for me, for anger, becoming angry at you and. And just the fact that you had made those choices.And then the fourth thing probably was the thing that probably overarched everything, and that was probably just pride because more or less the reason I became angry and things was what are people going to think of me, you know, as a pastor, as a parent, and more than I should have thought, you know, how can I help, you know, my son? It was more like, well, what are people going to think of me? And it was just a pride issue that.That had to deal with for a long time because I realized it's not, you know, it's not anything that maybe I have failed at, but, you know, it was just a sinful choice that, you know, any one of us could make.

Yeah.And by this time, though, just to give a little context, I mean, by this time I was already out of the house on my own, married at the time, and we were actually living in a different state and. But I mean, it sounds like what you're saying is just that even that still you felt like it had some reflection on you as a parent. Yeah.

I mean, I even considered leaving the ministry until, you know, two good friends talked to me and had gone to them and kind of shared with them some of the stuff that was going on and, you know, gave me some wise counsel and said, hey, you know, he's an adult, he's married, he's on his own.You know, I know it's hard to go through, but don't do anything foolish like leave the ministry over this because he made his own decisions as an adult and, you know, they're not really reflective of anything that you had failed at.

Do you guys feel like because of the culture you were in, it didn't leave a whole lot of room for you guys to feel like you could be vulnerable about what was going on with a lot of people for fear of maybe judgment or whatever it may be?

Well, I know for me, you know, going through that or even, you know, my own struggles in my life, you really. I felt like I really couldn't go to anyone at all and talk to them about it, except, you know, my wife.Because of what people might think, how they might judge you. In that culture, everybody always looks like they're doing great when they come to church. They put on a smile, they wear the right clothes, and.And yet nobody wants to be vulnerable enough to share their struggles with anyone else because, number one, you'll hear it being talked about, know, throughout the church because no one can keep anything confidential.And so there's an unwillingness to be real vulnerable in that culture because of just being judged and looked at in a different way, realizing that, you know, we're all broken people and, you know, there's just a sense of not wanting to talk to people about it.

Yeah, I would agree with that.I think we saw that in lesser situations that were not quite as far reaching as what your choices had been, but even in those small situations where suddenly everybody is, you know, knows what's going on, and then, you know, there's the judgment. I'm on this side, I'm on that side. And I would agree that, you know, it. It does make you tend to be very not vulnerable with people.

Okay, now let's.Let's kind of look at now where you guys are at just in the last couple of years, because you guys have really kind of come out of that culture and are plugged into a really good church now. So what do you think it was for you guys that kind of helped lead you out of that culture into the church that you're at now?

I think one thing was that we had started listening to sermons from that church and realized that we really desired that openness and transparency so that you could have conversations with people about your struggles. And this is, you know, what I'm facing or I'm struggling in this area. Just that desire for openness and.And then also just a desire to be challenged by God's word and see what God wanted us to do where God would have us to serve and just really learning, you know, to trust him, to serve him and just that desire to be with other broken people who realize that and who could come alongside you or you could go alongside someone else and. And minister to people.

I think for me, it was a couple different things. First of all, the inadequacy of our church culture that we were in to really help anybody that was struggling with major problems in their life.There was a. Seemed like a very unresponsive way to deal with certain things.Like, we don't want anyone to know that we have these problems in the church, so we're just going to kind of sweep them under the rug and not really deal with them like we should. Also, I saw a lot of kids that grew up to be teenagers in college age, young people to.To walk away from everything that they had been taught since they were little. And I kept feeling like something.Something's wrong here, because, you know, here all these kids did the right things, didn't do certain things, you know, on the. Out on the outward appearance.And then they'd walk away from church or the faith later on and question everything that they'd been about, talking, taught, growing up. So I felt that something was missing and something. The wrong emphasis was being placed upon the wrong things. And I began to, as my wife said to.We began to listen to sermons.Remember some of the first sermons I heard in the church that we're going to now, the preacher would get up and he would, you know, be vulnerable during the message and say, these are some things I struggle with this week.And it's like, wow, I. I never heard that anywhere in the culture that we grew up, because no one would ever do that because they'd be judged for saying that and probably be asked to even leave the ministry on some things. But it was just a vulnerability. And then just seeing the lives of people that were changed.I even looked at your life and you had been going to that church for a while and what the preaching had done in your life and how you had changed and were beginning to even take the results of the bad choices that you did and use it to help other people so they didn't have to go down that path or help them as they deal with different struggles in their life.

Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest things that really led me to Grace, too, was just the vulnerability of the staff. And I mean, you still get people who aren't willing to be vulnerable, but just the overall attitude of the Staff and pastors there was.Was really what I needed at that time. And just to say, okay, it's safe for me to be just say, hey, this is all my junk. And, you know, I need people to walk through it with me.So that was definitely a big reason for me as well for going there.

Yeah.I think even in our small groups that we have on Wednesday, it's gave us the freedom to just be able to share our hearts and our burdens and struggles that we're having and not feel that they were going to be discussed during the week with the whole church. It's still. I got to admit, it's still hard. I'm not arrived yet. As far as the vulnerability. It's still hard to come out of that shell a little bit.But I think more and more I'm seeing me be able to express that with people.

Now.When you guys look back kind of over the whole process and everything that we walked through as a family because of my sin, is there anything through any of that or just in general that you felt like you had. Could have done differently?

One thing that I've been impressed with is that I wish I had prayed more for my children. I mean, I prayed for you, and yet I don't think I really took a hold of the throne of God and said, this is what my. My desires are for my children.I don't think I really talked to God about what I wanted to see in your life. And I think I just wish that I had done more of that. And just God knows my heart and he knows what I wish for for my children.We all have expectations of what we'd like to see happen with our children, but I never really said that to God, so I didn't really. I just expected he would know that. And then I wish that we had been more confrontational in a loving manner, but confrontational nonetheless.Instead of letting excuses and stories slide and not really confront you with that, we just kept thinking, well, you know, he's in church. I'm sure, you know, yeah, maybe that story didn't sound very believable, but, you know, I'm sure he's okay.And so I wish we had had realized what it means to confront in love as God says to, and that we had done more of that and maybe put a block up for you that maybe would have helped.

Yeah, I think that probably some of the things I might have done different, you know, with the kids growing up, not so much focus on the rules and the regulations. Here's what you can and can't do but focus more on. On the heart and realize that the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked and.And realized that it's just a sin issue that we constantly have to deal with. Not a culture that would make us judge because of things that people do and don't do.I think I would be more supportive and not really care what people think more than caring what God thinks and how I'm doing.As a parent, we had a lot of, I think, feelings of what people were going to think if we allowed our kids to do certain things or didn't allow them to do certain things.And instead of realizing that we were responsible for our children and that we wanted to bring them up with the right heart more than what they conformed to and not conform to.And I think later on when all this happened, I. I think I do things different and just be more supportive instead of being proud and worrying about me. To be more supportive of you and what you were going through at the time.

Yeah. And here a lot of times I felt like, boy, that there was a lot of the lies that I had constructed were so well thought out.But I think there was a lot of times that you guys kind of saw right through that. And even as a parent now myself, you know, I can see that sometimes as well with my son. But.But yeah, and I thought I had it all figured out and was good at hiding stuff. But what would you guys say for each of you has been the biggest lesson that God has taught you through all this?

Well, God gave me a mattress, and so he taught me how to trust him. Even in times when nothing seemed to be going well, he began to teach my heart to trust.And we lived in South Carolina and you lived in Wisconsin, and we were trying to figure out how we could get you to come to South Carolina.And so we made several driving trips, you and I going back and forth and trying to find you a place there to stay before we could get you to Greenville. And I went to a ladies retreat and I won the grand prize, which was a mattress. And God said to me that night, just trust me, I'll get him here.We didn't have a place to put the mattress. We didn't have a place for you to stay. We didn't know when you were coming. But God really began working in my heart that trust is everything.And I could trust him because he's good and he's faithful. And I just needed to let go of all the details of how you were going to get there. And where you were going to live.And I just had to wait and trust that he was in control and that he was going to work everything out.And so I still celebrate the goodness of God in my life when he gave me that mattress, because that was just the start of him really, really teaching me. And here all this time, I thought, well, yeah, I know how to trust the Lord.But God really showed me that I didn't know enough about how to trust the Lord. And so that's probably my biggest takeaway.

I think it was a couple days before I was actually supposed to move or the kind of the. The date that we had thought was going to be the date I was moving. We hadn't really. The details weren't exactly all worked out yet.And I think it was a couple days before you were actually getting ready to cancel the car rental. And I think you and I had talked, and I just said, look, I said, I think it's gonna. It's gonna happen.I'm, you know, I'm trusting God on this day that it's gonna come through. And sure enough, it did come through on that day, you know, and you were ready to just cancel the rental car and wait for a different time.And so I think that was another huge example of just learning to trust through some of that unknown.

I think for you, that was a great thing because you were trusting God and you were asking God for this date, and God answered that for you. He didn't answer that for me because I actually did cancel that rental car.And when you called me, it was like, oh, I have to get the rental car again. It's bad. I didn't really trust like I was supposed to. So was an answer for you in an area.And then it was a rebuke to me that, oh, you really weren't trusting. You were just saying that, but you canceled the rental car.

Yeah. I think for me, one of the biggest lessons God has taught me through it all is that, you know, that we are broken people.I think we tend to forget that. Even the culture I grew up in, you didn't hear much about Christians talking about being broken. They still have. They'll still say, yeah, we sin, but.But you don't really, again, hear their struggles because they don't want to share them with people for one or various reasons, and that we're all broken people that you can. You can teach your children all the right things and even in that culture, make them do the right things and don't do certain things.And yet they still have a sinful nature. They can go to Christian school and go to church from the time they were babies and not miss one service. But there's still that sinful nature there.And there's that brokenness that any one of us at any given time can choose to go down a sinful path and make a wrong, sinful choice that will affect our lives and the lives of those around us. And we're not exempt from that by any means.And I think one of the things that helps is that you can talk to people about that before you reach that point. You could talk to people. I'm sure that if you were.If you think back in your life, that if you felt like you could have went to someone, even me or mom, to talk about that without being looked at or judged about some of the struggles you were having, you know, you might have maybe handled them in a different way, just like any one of us would. But. So I think that's the biggest thing God has showed me is that, you know, we're still broken people.No matter how long we've been saved and had a relationship with the Lord, we're still broken and have a sinful nature. And we can. We can choose to follow that sinful nature at any given point.

I think that's something. That one thing, mom, that you said has been something that's come up a lot, it seems like, in a lot of the preaching series at church lately.And it's kind of been something that's become a big thing with our family and talking about trusting God because it's so easy to trust God when everything's going great. But I remember one of the messages where he said, you know, it's.It's in the moments of life where we're squeezed is kind of what's really going to reveal our heart and how we're trusting God.And so for us, one thing that's become a big thing that we've talked about lately is in regards to trust is kind of, you know, the story of Peter in the boat. And, you know, it seems like every day we. Something comes up where we. We say to each other, you know, just get. Get out of the boat.You got back in, but get back out of the boat and stand on the water with Jesus and just keep your focus on him. So. But yeah, I think that's been something that we've been learning a lot lately. For sure.

I agree.

So as we kind of bring everything to a close, what would be some advice that you would offer parents offer to parents who might be walking through something painful with their child. Or maybe, you know, maybe parents don't feel prepared in a sense to kind of walk through something with their child like that.I mean, what would be some advice that you would offer?

Well, I would definitely say that your children need to know that you love them unconditionally. We don't love their sin. We don't love the choices that they make.But they need to know that we're there and we're available and we need to be encouraging. One thing I think that I would say is don't be afraid to confront your child when you know there's some sinful choices and some things there that.That need to be dealt with. We all face, I think, the discouragement when our. We see that our children are falling into that sinful lifestyle or rebellion and.And we can't be afraid to confront them.And one thing that God has been teaching me over the last couple weeks as we've been doing a sermon series is that godly confrontation is both redemptive and restorative. And it's for our good and our stories and our children's stories do not have to end in defeat. Christ is done the work. He has finished the work.And he is the one who can redeem and restore them, our children, to holiness, to the right path, to trusting him and having a relationship with Him.So we can't be afraid to have those conversations, those difficult conversations, and bathe that in prayer and just ask the Lord to give you wisdom and clear words as you. As you confront, but lovingly and just being there so your children know that you're available for them.

Yeah, I think developing an atmosphere within the home where your children can come and talk to you about anything. And I think one way to do that is to. For you as a parent to maybe even share some of your struggles with your.With your children that you struggle with and that they're not alone in their struggles, but you also have struggles. And I don't think that's sometimes developed in the home.I know it wasn't in ours where there was that openness and vulnerability to be able to talk about things without consequences. And so I think that's important to know that your children can come talk to you about anything without a fear of what's going to happen.There are sometimes that maybe some clear direction has to be taken, but.But there's not that fear of coming to them and talking to them, because as a parent, they've shared struggles that they've had with you at different ages that they've struggled with.And I think one of the most important things is just that I can, as I look back, is just to sit back and let God write their story, even in sinful choices. Not to let your children just go out and make sinful choices without, you know, putting up some boundaries.But as they even get older, they make simple choices. They make wrong decisions to allow God to write their story, because as Jill said, there's, you know, it's a way for God to be glorified through it.Even when we make wrong decisions, God can still receive glory through that and what he wants to accomplish in our lives.And I think there's just, you know, don't, as a parent, just think that you can shelter your children from all these worldly influences by keeping things out, and they still have a sinful heart, and they're still going to maybe choose that sinful direction because, again, we are broken, and no one's exempt from that. So I think just developing that atmosphere where you can talk, and as you're talking, sometimes that confrontation needs to take place.

All right, well, I really appreciate you guys joining me today, and I know it's hard to talk about those things sometimes, but I. I hope it can be a blessing to maybe some other parents or even some children who are struggling through some things and just kind of walking through that together as a family. So thank you guys for being willing to. To come on and share your hearts through some of that. I appreciate it.

Well, thanks for having us.

All right, thanks for tuning in to the Prodigal Journey. Be sure to check us out. We're available on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.So go check us out, give us a rating or subscribe if you want to reach out Ben at the prodigal journey.com Tune in next time to the Prodigal Journey.