TPJ03 | Chained But Free | Jeremy Lister | 1.24.21

Foreign.

Welcome to the Prodigal Journey. This is Ben. The prodigal Journey is a place where we celebrate the power of Christ through our weakness.It's a safe place for us to be vulnerable, share our stories, and for us to experience the grace of God in other people's journeys as well. Today we are going to be joined by Jeremy Lister. And you don't want to miss this episode.We're going to talk about what life was like before recovery, talk about his recovery journey and what God is doing in his life now. So don't go anywhere. We will be right back to talk to Jeremy.

Dying for the sins of every man. It is done. Conquered on the cross through the son of God. The son of man.

Jeremy, thanks for joining us today. It's great to have you on the show. How you doing, man?

I'm so good. Thank you for having me on the show.

Awesome. Glad to have you. We also did another podcast. You were over on the Fame music show. So go check that out.Jeremy's also a musician, if you want to check that out and check out some of his original music. All right, let's. Let's start with a little background. Where are you originally from?

Originally, I'm from Salt Lake City, but I grew up in and around Colorado, in and out of New Mexico area as well.

Okay, and now you're living in Greenville, correct?

Yeah, a long way from where I'm normally from, so.

Yeah. All right, we'll get into that a little later. Um, so, you know, let's talk a little bit about just kind of your journey before recovery.You grew up in a single parent household.Do you think that any of that had, you know, just with not having the leadership of a father around during that time, do you think that at all played a part in your story and the path that you went through?

Yeah, I really do. Without the lack of leadership of a male in my household, there was a big deficit in my life. Like, I didn't know how to be a man.I searched near and far to find ways to. To gain approval and acceptance. Through drugs, through affirmation, false affirmation, and false intimacy in so many different ways.Through sex, drugs, money, so many different things, man. Gangs involved with the wrong people, thinking that they cared about me. Yeah, they didn't. They didn't care. They didn't care about themselves.How could they care about me, you know?

Yeah, yeah. When I think about man, I have a son, he's six.And when I think he lives in Florida right now, so when I just think about the aspect of, you know, not being able to be around him every day and have some type of influence every day.I have to be really intentional about the times I do get to see him in person, but also just my times over the phone with him, because if I'm not intentional about investing in him during those times, like, it's nobody's fault but my own. You know, I hear a lot of guys say, well, my. My child lives in a different place. I don't see him.But at that point, it's really on you if you're not putting in the effort. So, I mean, I just. It's so important for kids to have those influences from their parents.

So definitely that's. That's definitely true.I mean, even my dad living 10 hours away, nine hours away, or whatever, it is just an intentional call every week would have been cool. Like, I mean, he was doing his own thing. He kind of didn't. Probably didn't understand how it was affecting me.I mean, calling me twice a year, once for my birthday and once for Christmas wasn't. Didn't suffice for me. You know, I kind of resented him for it.And, you know, currently I'm actually getting to know him a little better and having more of a relationship, which is pretty cool.

Awesome.

So at age 11, you mentioned that your life took a turn for the worst. What happened during this time? So.

So that was my first experience with a loss in the family. Like I said, I didn't have a real male role model, but my Papa Joe, I was like his favorite for some reason. He just always loved me.I mean, he wasn't always around, but, you know, he meant a lot to me. I remember going to school one morning. He was on hospice, and I went and I sat there with him, and he.And he told me, I just listen to your mom and listen to your grandma and know that I love you. And I went to school later on that day, and my uncle Larry was a principal at the school.At the junior high school, I was in intermediate school, and they called me to the office, and he said that my grandpa had died. He probably died, I think. From what? If I remember correctly, man, he died probably 10 minutes after I had left my grandma's house.So, I mean, it was really hard for me, and I didn't know how to handle it or didn't know how to really react. So I kind of withdrew. I was in, like, a spiral of depression. I left school. My mom let me take a couple weeks off and kind of just reorient myself.And I, and I, and I never did.I mean, I just, I was going to the skate park and smoking weed and drinking and started smoking cigarettes and just a bunch of different type of stuff. And then I kind of just got submerged in, in all that. So that, that's really, that was really a turning point in my life.That's when I started really experimenting with drugs and really just going down that path.

Now, in what ways were your, was your life not working before recovery, you say?

In every way. I mean, I couldn't, I didn't have a decent relationship with anybody. I mean, super dysfunctional. I couldn't hold a job down.I couldn't, I couldn't do anything right, man. It was, it was a constant struggle just to keep the demons that I had in my head at bay. If it wasn't one thing, it was the other.I, I was in a semi long term relationship with a girl and I, I mean, it was all about me. Like I, I had, I didn't care about anything else but myself. And I mean, I just ran every relationship that I had into the dirt to the ground.And it was, it was hard, but I didn't care because as long as I had my necks high or was doing what I wanted to do, it. It really didn't matter who I trampled on or drugged through the mud.

Okay, let's talk a little bit about, you know, you talked about some drugs and stuff like that. Let's talk about kind of that first time that you had made that decision. Do you, you remember what was going on in that moment?Do you kind of remember what your thought process was at that time?

Yeah, I mean, I had been through, I've been through so much, man. And I was in and out of prison, most of my adult life in jails. Attempted to go to rehab. That didn't really work out.And I was looking, I mean, worst case scenario, I was looking at a habitual criminal charge with up to 38 years. And they denied me for everything. I had no other option, really. I was kind of forced. I was like, they're like, you're going to prison.It just for how long was kind of the question. And I was at the end of myself, man. I was, I was so broken and so distraught and lost, man. I. And I started, I started reading the Bible in jail.Like, I, I went to chapel. I kind of like was searching. I've known about God most like all my life.I was the kind of the bargain, the bargain prayer, prayer, you know what I mean? So, you know, I just. I just had. I just had it. And I. And I was reading in Habakkuk, who is a minor prophet, I'm sure you know that.But he says, for I'm going to do something in your day that you wouldn't believe even if someone were to tell you. And it just. It jumped out at me, and it just really tugged at my heartstrings. And I was like, really?You're gonna do something for me that I wouldn't believe even if someone were to tell me? And you know instantly, man, I just. I just started crying. I started praying. I said, lord, I know that you're real.And if this is all true, if all these things you're saying is true, if your son really died for me, what do you want from me? What do you want me to do? Where you want me to go? What do you want me to do? Because I. I don't. I don't want to continue living my life like this.Like I am in. I'm so miserable. I'm so lost, and I can't do it on my own. Every time I try, I dig myself deeper and deeper and deeper. And I'm.And I'm crying in this jail cell. And a guard came on my intercom and said, hey, Mr. Lister. I said, yeah, what's up? He said, there's someone here to see you. And I said, what?Who is it? And he's like, well, do you want to see him or not? I said, yeah, I guess. And I get it. I go into this room, and it's a guy with his legs crossed.He's doing a Sudoku puzzle. I just look at him, kind of funny. He's got a Rolex on, and he's got this suit. And he's like, hey, are you Jeremy Lister? I said, yes, sir.He said, my name's Richard J. And I hear you want some help. And I said, yeah, I do. I'm more than anything.He said, well, so basically, in Habakkuk, when I was reading, it says, may be quick, but don't. It will not delay, for these things will come to pass or something.It's something along those lines, basically, wait, be patient, because these things are coming. And he basically repeated the same thing that I was reading in that jail cell, verbatim.He said, well, are you willing to relocate to Greenville, South Carolina? I said, I'm willing to do anything, you know, yeah, for change. I can't do this anymore. And he said, okay, well, it's going to take a little While.But I'm. I'm telling you that I have a lot of pool in the courts, and I will get you there. We will get you there.

Yeah.

And I. And I just started crying because it was an instantaneous prayer answered, man, like, awesome. You know.

Yeah, we'll get back to some of that towards the end. We don't want to reveal too much. We want to save some of the good stuff for the end.

Okay.

But now, you talked about your grandfather passing away. You also had a few other deaths in the family, kind of. You know, I don't know if they were.I can't remember if they were all around that same time, but tell us a little bit about that, how that affected you? Did that affect, you know, a lot of the decisions that led to some of your arrests?

Yeah, so the first one to die was my brother. He was my older brother. We were like five years apart, I believe. And he got diagnosed with terminal cancer at the age of 21. Got life.Flighted to Denver. He had a. He couldn't breathe. He ended up getting diagnosed, I believe, with esophageal cancer.

If.

If.

I'm pretty sure that's what it was. He had no uses. Use of his esophagus, and they gave him six months to live. And I mean, it was just.It was crushing just to watch my brother slowly wither and die and suffer like that, man. I, you know, I. I kind of help be his caretaker, help take care of him.And at times I stayed with him in the hospital and went with him to his chemo and his radiation. Me and him, we weren't. We weren't very close. Before he got cancer, we were kind of at each other's throats all the time, just saying things.You know how brothers are, man, I hate you. This, and I hate you. They're just so angry at each other all the time, you know, little brother, big brother, kind of conflict and.Yeah, you know, a lot of things that I. I regretted for the way that I treated him and the way I. The thing. Some of the things I said. But he ended up passing. He went to Germany to get hydroshock chemotherapy, I believe it's called. And.And my mom found him. I think she found him dead in the bathroom. And I think they revived him. And then he shortly passed, shortly after that due to a blood clot. And.And that was. That was hard on me, man. I remember the day I found out, they called. They called me and they told me, hey, come. Come to grandma's house.And they told Me, and I just remember running out in the street, man, and I started punching the concrete like as hard as I could, like over and over and over. And it was just. I was broken, man. I. I never thought that I could feel that way.And so over time, like, I mean, ever since I started using drugs, I started basically trying to kill myself by using drugs and trying to drown out the pain combination of every drug mixed together is just. I mean, it's. It's a toxic concoction, you know what I'm saying?But shortly after that, I mean, I, I remember I moved up and moved to New Mexico with a backpack. I mean, I didn't, I didn't have much. I didn't have any money. Like, I was.I started using meth and, and I was using a lot of cocaine every day and I was sick of it, man. So I just kind of. I started walking. I didn't have a plan. I kind of just left. I ended up getting established my.I had a girl over there that I knew who became my girlfriend. And I kind of just started repeating the cycle.I did good for like two months and then I met some people and then I, you know, started the whole cycle back over again and started fighting with my girlfriend, which led to incarceration due to domestic violence stuff. But also like right after we had met, about a year and a half, maybe two years later, my. His. My brother had a son.He was seven years old, his name is Hunter. And he ended up passing away of a freak accident.He was on top of a concrete bird bath and the bird bath like fell from underneath his feet and he fell over and the bird bath crushed his heart. It fell on top of him, crushed his heart and his lungs and killed him. Killed him instantly. That was just like icing on top of the cake, man.It was really, really hard for me to deal with. And I remember not speaking at my brother's funeral because, I mean, I was just so hurt.And I just remember the regret and I remember nobody was going up there to say anything.And I couldn't let him just his memory linger like that when nobody's speaking at his, his, his funeral because that kid was the most polite kid I've ever met in my whole. I never heard him cry or complain and, or anything like he never back talk like he might have, but I've never heard.I never heard him like, he was an awesome kid, full of joy and love.So I mean, I remember speaking and then a whole bunch of people just came up and told stories about just what he's done and how they, how they loved him and how he treated them. But anyways, yeah, that was. Those are big key parts of my life, man, that really just. I mean, I just kept feeling like I kept.Been digging a hole, kept going down a rabbit hole, man. Things just kept happening one after the other, one after the other, and.

Yeah.

Just didn't know how to handle it.

Yeah.

Speaking of brothers, I don't. So I'm a horrible host this episode. I don't usually have a co host on this show. This is the first time I've had a co host on the Prodigal Journey.But the co host, I mean, I've got my brother JJ with us, so I'm a horrible host to not mention that at the beginning. And also with. In regards to brothers, like, I mean, I think we can both definitely attest to some of that with the fighting and all that.But yeah, we lost our, our older brother back in 2013, and that. That was definitely played a huge part in both of our stories.I know when he passed away, I was still incarcerated during that time, and I was thankfully able to get, you know, out for his funeral, but they just kind of extended an extra day on my, My, my sentence there. But it's worth it to get out, to do that, be able to get that closure from him, from going to the. His funeral. So. Yeah.

So at what point did you know in your life that something needed to change? What was that turning point.

When I was stuck with nothing. Like, I didn't. I mean, I couldn't. I mean, my mom, I could call my mom. I mean, my mom's showing me absolute nothing but love.Even when I didn't deserve it. Especially when I didn't deserve it. And, you know, she just. It was just a point to where I realized, man, that I can't do this on my own. That.I mean, every time I try to do something, you know, it's the big scheme, the big thing. The next idea that I have is going to get me there where I need to be, and I'm going to do this, and I'm going to do that.And it never turns out how I thought it was, you know, it always end. I always break out in handcuffs, you know, every time I try to do something on my own.And every idea that I had was illegal, you know, and, you know, I realized that I was never gonna get out alive if I continue to live my life this way. I mean, I ended up. I mean, I've been stabbed, I've Been shot at. I've been in crazy situations, man.And it just, it never occurred to me like that there was another life other than what I was living, because I had been accustomed to living it since I was such a young kid that it just was. I felt like there was no way out and no one would help me.Like I was in this reciprocating cycle of getting arrested, waiting in jail for nine months, going to prison for a year, getting out on parole, not having anywhere to go, not having any plan or anybody to help me to start selling drugs again and doing whatever I was doing from before. And there was no break in the chain. There was no break in the cycle. And I, you know, and Jesus was that break in the chain.He broke those chains, he broke that cycle. And he gave me a new path to walk on, man. It's a solid path.Before, I was walking on like a riverbed of rock, slippery, slimy rocks that was inevitable that you're gonna fall and crack your head open. But he gave me a new path of a perfect paved way, man of streets of gold, you know what I mean?

So, yeah, I wanna, I wanna, I have a question about that I kind of want to address as far as the incarceration part.But before that, this, I thought of this question while you were, when you said you had never really thought that there was another life, you know, possible to live.I know this question comes up in Regen a lot, which is the program at our church, but when you, when you think about the relationship as you were growing up that you didn't have with your, with your dad, did that at any point through your recovery process come up for you, as far as, you know, it being hard for you to. I guess what I'm saying is did you associate kind of God as being a father with the way your father was? And did that at all create any.A hard place for you to be able to accept what Christ had for you?

I don't know, man. I didn't really associate it with like a father figure in my life.I mean, maybe I did because I desperately was seeking after that and I desperately wanted that in my life because I seek and search like I use this term, as I had a God shaped hole in my heart that I tried to fill with everything but God. And I believe that it allowed me to embrace him more.And I know that that's not the case with a lot of people, but it allowed me to really just embrace and trust him and really just put my faith in him because he proved Himself faithful. Time and time again, man, just over and over and over. Even though I was made, I made bad decisions and even though I wasn't.I mean, I thought once I got saved, I was going to be perfect and everything was going to be good. Like when I first started reading the Bible and started like, it was like this big mountain I needed to climb.But I just kept remembering, have faith. Like, faith is the assurance of things hoped for that we can't see. And I couldn't see him. I never saw a dad. I never had that.But I believed that he loved me because he brought me out of that situation. Yeah, he changed my heart. Like it was an instantaneous heart change, man. Like I, I didn't want to cuss anymore. I didn't want to do these things.And I'm, I'm still in jail, like gang banging. And I told my, like people I was running with, I said, man, I don't, I don't want to do this anymore.I said, you can do whatever you want to do, man, handle your business, but I'm done. I can't. It says you can't serve two masters. You know, I, I don't want to be of the world anymore.I don't want to live that way because I think I believe I'm being called to something more.

Yeah, that's awesome.The one thing I kind of was thinking about is, and I want to address this because I think there's a lot of misconception out there if you haven't, if you've never spent time incarcerated or had any family go through that. There's a lot of misconceptions as far as, you know, people getting out of incarceration and then going back.Like people who have not been connected to that in some way or, you know, they're thinking, oh, this is just a career criminal, like they're just always going to do this.But really one of the biggest issues is there's not a lot of good programs helping guys that get out of incarceration to re reintegrate into society, you know, and that they're now around this area of the upstate. There's a lot of good programs which we'll get into a little later, kind of your, you know, experiences with some of those.But if you, if you don't have a good support network, people in your corner. I mean, the reason so many guys just keep going back is because that's all they've known.It's a security in some ways because once you get out trying to readjust to a lot of things, it can be difficult. And, and I was just thinking about that. Cause you said you had been in and out of incarceration a couple times.Did that, did that play into it at all for you?

Well, yeah, I mean, people, places and things is super, super big role in that.You know, they like, they want you to change, they want to say they want to help you, but then they stick you right back where you came from and have no help for you. I mean, I remember I was, I got out on parole, like I said before I went to that, tried to go to that rehab.And I get there and they have no idea who I am. Like, they're like, who are you?But I was, I had paperwork signed by the state of Colorado saying that I'm supposed to be at this rehab at this time on this date, notarized, sealed, and with the seal of color state of Colorado, and signed by the parole board and signed by whoever else was supposed to sign it. And I get there and I show them this paperwork. There's like, we don't know who you are. Like, bye.They just basically cast me out to the streets and I, and I did like, what am I, I mean, I have no money. I, I had a hundred dollar gate money. What do you think I'm gonna do with it?Like, I mean, ultimately it was my choice, but like when I went to the parole to for help, they're like, whoa, there's no, you don't really meet the criteria. This is a month later after I'd been sleeping on a bench on Capitol Hill for 30 days, roaming the streets like with nowhere to go.Like, the, all the rescue missions and places are completely jam packed. There's nowhere to go. And he's like, well, you don't quite meet the criteria. I'm like, well what do I have to do?Be dying to get you to help me or something? Like, I mean, and I was, I mean I was barely, barely even surviving. Like, I was, I was half dead walking out there on the streets, man.And it was super hard.And you know, they say that they want to integrate people who come out of DOC and prisons into society, but then yet they don't do anything to help them.I mean, there's a lack of funding, there's a lack of accountability on, on the part of parole and other community corrections or whatever you want to say what, however, whatever the programs are that they have for people coming out of DOC in prisons, it just, it's super difficult, man, to, to try to like, it's like taking an alcoholic and putting him in a bar and saying, don't drink.

Yeah.

You know, with a. With an unlimited tab, like, you don't have to pay for anything. You know, that's like basically what it is. It's.

Right.

Yeah. I mean, maybe a little extreme, but you know what I'm saying, like, yeah, it's comparable.

Okay, now let's. Let's talk a little bit about your recovery process.

Okay.

Now, how. How did God get you to recovery?

Oh, man, like I said before, Richard J. The lawyer that I met with instantaneous prayer answered. So after I met with Richard J. I. I ended up getting in a fight with a guy over the remote.Something so stupid, I ended up going to solitary confinement for five and a half months before I came out to South Carolina. So in that five and a half months, man, my face was stretched because I didn't know anything.I could get out three hours out a week, that's it, to make a phone call and take a shower three times a week. And I was kind of left in the dark. I couldn't talk to anybody. I didn't really have any information on this, so I kind of just had to lean on God.And during that five and a half months, man, that I've never been more joyous and happy in my entire life because I got to know who Jesus is through his word and through prayer and learning how to pray and learning what. What the word of God says and how I should conduct myself. And all the while there's these.All these people just kind of like going the complete opposite direction and acting like crazy people. And I was just like, this is what I was living like, this is how I was acting. And it kind of just opened up my eyes.I read, I had a life recovery Bible. I'm sure there's one right there. So, I mean, and that whole Bible, I mean, I was reading it this morning, I went back and read it, and I.Almost every page in there is high. Something's highlighted, you know, notes galore. And just, man, just the importance of recovery.So God basically prepared me five and a half months before. So I went to the over Miracle Hill Overcomer center here in Greenville.So before that, five and a half months, I got prepared from the Lord to do what I was going to do here in South Carolina and just preparing me for that road to recovery, man, the starting point of the road to recovery was super important, I think. And God has a plan for everything, man. He uses everything for his good, you know.What, what, what what the devil meant for evil, God meant for good, man. And so during that time in Miracle Hill Overcomers, it was a super big change. You know, I'm from Colorado and the South.I couldn't understand anything anybody was saying, you know, hey, how you doing, man? Where are you from? Like, I'm just like, what? You know.

Yeah.

And it, it was a super culture shock for me, but I thought people were being disrespectful to me at first, but they were just Southern mannerisms and things like that. And it took some getting used to, man, and just, just leaning, leaning in on the Lord and, and trusting him, man.But that road to recovery was, that's. I mean, I think it took place in that jail cell when I was hidden from the world and I really was alone.Not necessarily alone, but alone to my solitude and my thoughts just replaying everything that I've ever done in my whole life, analyzing it and giving it to God, you know, and there's another process. I think it's step five. And what I did was I wrote all the people that I've wronged, all the things that I've done, and I burned him.I put them in a little like a coffee can and I, and I burnt him, you know, and it was liberating. It was freeing because I don't have to regret anything anymore. The Lord is all right. He's forgiven me whether or not they want to forgive me.And I want to, I do want to pursue forgiveness from people that I've harmed in various ways. If they don't want to forgive me, that's, it's, it's okay because I know that I've been forgiven.

Yeah.

And I can forgive myself for the things that I've done. So, I mean, that was a real big starting point to my road to recovery was that, was that five and a half months in that jail cell?

Yeah. Now, now how exactly did this lawyer get connected to you, Jeremy Lister, and because he was instrumental in helping you get to Greenville, correct?

Yeah, he was. He, well, he was the legality part of it. So there's these people, their names are Drew and Penny Kroll. Awesome people.I just had breakfast with Drew yesterday morning, but he, they're from Colorado, Penny's from Anderson, South Carolina. And they started, they picked up this ministry that their dad, that Penny's dad started 15, 20 years ago.But what they do is they help people who are recovering and want to want help and they send them to faith based rehabs. They're linked up with Miracle Hill, Shalom Transformation Life Center, a bunch of different programs.And I kind of reached out to them through my mom. And since I was on parole at the time, I was, I was disqualified from entering any programs out of state.And during, like, it's cool how God orchestrated it all because, I mean, I, I killed my parole number while I was in jail waiting. And that day I was supposed to get sentenced. They were, they had an open plea sentence and I, and I told them I didn't want to be sentenced that day.And that, that was the day I went jail cell and started reading Habakkuk and started praying. And how God orchestrated it so beautifully, man, it blows my mind. And Richard J.Came to see me that day, not knowing that I had court or anything like that. Like, because I asked him, I said, did you know I had court? Why weren't you there? Or whatever. He's like, I didn't know.I just kind of just came when I was supposed to come.

Yeah.

And it just is crazy, man. And so doing things like that, like in the courts without being sentenced and on probation is unheard of.It's actually illegal for them to sentence me to allow me to go out of state to a rehab in the state of Colorado. It's illegal. Judges can do what they want. But Richard J. Said he told the judge that he want, he, he, he believes that I would do good.And, and the judge is like, man, everything in me is telling me not to give you a chance. So if you, if you mess this up, Mr. Lister, I'm telling you, I'm going to give you everything I can give you.He said, if you make me look like a fool, I'm gonna come down on you.And, and it was just like, it was crazy because, I mean, I didn't think that I was gonna be where I am sitting here today, two years ago when I was sitting in that cell. Yeah, you know, just, it, it blows my mind.

Yeah, it's awesome. You, you went through the Miracle Hill program. You've also gone through regen at Grace Church. What, what has that done for you?And I guess, I mean, also, when would you say is the point when Christ saved you throughout this process?

I believe he saved me in that jail cell. But he sanct, he's sanctifying me through his word and through God's people and through revelation through of scripture and through the Holy Spirit.You know, there's been some instrumental people who played some big roles in my, in my, in my walk with Christ. I'm also currently at homes of Hope Steve. I carry Bob Ivans and Nate Fleming there. I mean, it's crazy to see people actually live out the gospel.I mean, imperfectly, but living it out and just seeing people every single day just being super authentic with what's going on in their lives and what God's doing in their lives, it's just, it's just refreshing and new to me and being at region. I mean, it's cool to see how.I mean, it's not cool to see how many people are broken, but to see how many people are broken and who need help, who are searching and seeking for the Lord, man, it's humbling to watch and I love it. I, I believe that God put me exactly where I am right now for a reason, you know, and just going through that process has just changed my life, man.Because it's a kid. Like, the road to recovery is a never a road that you finish. I mean, it's a continual road until you enter the glory in heaven with Jesus.I mean, it's, it's, it's a never ending battle. It's an everyday struggle.

Yeah, I think pretty much in a lot of ways recovery and sanctification are the same thing. So.Oh yeah, it's all, you know, whether you want to use the word recovery or sanctification, we all have stuff that, you know, until like you said to glory, we're gonna have struggles and idols in our life. So.

Oh yeah.

Now, being a part of Miracle Hill program in regen through church, what would you say the most challenging thing was for you and what was the most healing thing for you during that, during those programs you went through?

The most challenging thing was at first being super authentic completely with the things I struggle with because I was like, you know, embarrassed or, or whatever. And then when you come to find out that every person in the room that you're sitting with has some form of that issue as well.It's, it's, it's liberating to be like, this is what I'm struggling with. And they're like, cave, I'm struggling with that too.Like, and it's like, whoa, like all these things that I hide, I try to hide everybody else is hiding as well.But then when you come to a body of people who, who are searching and seeking Christ, who are being authentic with that and being like, hey, this is what, this is what's going on in my life. This is what I was struggling with.One thing that really affected me, Jim Taylor, I'm sure you guys know Jim, he took me out to lunch one day, and he was more authentic than I've ever heard anybody be in my entire life. And it just tripped me out, like. Like I was just like, whoa. Just laid it on thick, like, just told me everything.And he was completely comfortable in his skin. And I respected the heck out of him for it because, I mean, I was just like, whoa.And it taught me a lot just to tell people, hey, this is where I was and this is where God's brought me. You know, I'm still. I still have that ability to go right back to it. But God is, in his grace is keeping me. You know, it's just super cool, man, to.To be a part of what God's doing in Regen through Miracle Hill, through Homes of Hope. And what God's doing there, man, it's. It's not like a blazing a trail that we need to do.It's just like seeing where God's at and where God's moving and just. And just following that and just living in that and walking in that.

Yeah, I. Before I came to grace a little, it's been about three years now.I know there's other churches out there similar to grace in that aspect of, like, people being open, vulnerable, especially church leadership like that. But in my life, I was always a part of churches where, I mean, it was all about your Sunday bass.You come in your suit and your tie, you always have a smile on your face. I mean, all that kind of stuff.And when I came to grace, I mean, similar to what you said, it was life changing for me because, I mean, I had, you know, church leadership sharing their stories with me and like, even Jim Taylor. And for people to be that vulnerable, like you said, it creates a respect with people that, hey, you know, they're on the same journey.They're just, you know, in a position of leadership, but they're. They have their own struggles.Yeah, you know, I was so used to that aspect of, like, people in church leadership are on this, you know, I don't know, pedestal. Yeah, that's probably what I'm looking for. Whereas.But, yeah, that's definitely encouraging to have that type of thing where people can be vulnerable. Because if you.If you can't feel that trust to where you can be vulnerable, I mean, you're not going to make the changes you need because you're going to feel alone in that journey. So it also helps create that.That community aspect of, hey, I could talk to this person because I know they're going to be vulnerable with me as well.

So, yeah, that's one thing that drew me to grace is like, I remember, I think the first person I heard speak was Blake Payne.

Yeah.

And he was just like, this is what's going on. This is how messed up I am. And Matt would say, I messed up. I don't get it right. And it's just like, is this church?

Are you supposed to be telling me this?

It's just church right now because, like, that's how I'm feeling, like. And were just a body of believers who are imperfect, trying to follow Christ and do life together, man.And that, that really is encouraging to know that you come as you are, man. You don't, you don't. I don't got to get dressed up and do all that.I could probably come in my pajamas and I don't think anybody would look at me any different. Maybe a couple people.

Yeah, who cares?

Like, you're coming, you're here, you're. You're here. That's the point.

Yeah. All right, let's talk a little bit. I mean, I use the phrase after recovery, but like we said a little bit ago, it's. It's a lifelong process.So I don't know if after recovery is the right word, but let's talk a little bit about where you are now. You know, you're still.I think you said you're close to being done with the Homes of Hope program, so talk a little bit about that and kind of where you're at right now.

Okay.Um, so Homes of Hope is a year long discipleship program where we build locale houses, but not only do we get and learn a trade, but we get discipled every single day. We do praise and worship every single morning. We do Devotion, about a 45 minute devotional every morning. We're in a Christ centered environment, man.It's. It's not only building a foundation in a trade, but spiritual foundation is key component to what is going on at Homes of Hope.And man, it's so cool, cuz. I mean, even the director, Steve, man, I, I could just, I could go with, to him with anything that I'm struggling with or.Hey, man, I got, I got an issue over here.I'm struggling with this, man, and he pray for me, man, and talk it out and, you know, it's super encouraging to know that you don't have to see somebody as an authority figure per se, like, whoa, well, he's gonna, he's gonna lay the hammer down if I tell him something or whatever. It's just, I mean, it's really cool, man. I, I'm in the last phase of the program. There's two phases. There's intern phase and work phase.Nine months, you're an intern the last three months.What you do is you, you save up money, you get a real job, you put your trade to use and you save up for an apartment and you get out on your own kind of are able to free to make wiser, to see like decisions on your own, like leave when you. Without accountability and stuff like that.And it's super helpful, man, just to, to be in a controlled environment at first, I mean, because the chaos of the world, man, it can get so, you can get so wrapped up in it. It's so chaotic out there, man. And so I started working for an electrical company this week actually. So I'm doing well, man.I'm excited to see what God has for me coming up. Hopefully like we talked about earlier, there's programs for people coming in and out of prison. It's called Jumpstart. I'm sure you've heard of it.Yeah, God's really put it on my heart, man, to, to be involved in that in some way, shape or form and I know probably my record and the things that I've done is probably going to hinder me maybe just momentarily. I believe it'll just be momentarily for me being able to go into the prisons and actually help mentor and guide some of them guys and to be relevant.I mean, because I believe we all have a calling on our life. God has a, has his imprint all over us and we're all specifically made for a purpose, for his purpose.And I believe that I, I believe that God's going to use me through prison ministry to show people like hey man, this, this is real like Jesus, it's not just some story, a 2000 year old story that somebody made up that there's, there's power in the name of Jesus through the resurrection and death of Jesus Christ and, and it's open to everybody as long as you accept it and, and believe it and want to follow it. I mean there's hope in that. Like there's no hope in the world because it's passing away.You, I mean you could see in everyday life just people are so divided and it's even in the, I mean sometimes even in the church, man. It's, but there is hope in Jesus and Jesus alone and, and, and I believe that's why I'm here.

Yeah, that's awesome man.I, I definitely, you know, homes of hope is one of those programs that has been pretty successful in this, you know, what they're doing as well as Jump Start. You know, I. I talked to one of the. I can't remember if he was a director of Jumpstart, but we did an interview with him one time on our radio show.And just him talking about the percentage of success they have from that program compared to others is just amazing what they're doing. And the thing I love about Homes of Hope is that they're not just putting you in a safe environment as they disciple you.Like you said, they're teaching you trade, work and things to help you be successful. You might not go out from the program and do something in that trade, but you're learning tools to be successful once you go out from there.And I really like that about their program. Will, in the show notes for this episode, we'll put a link to them for people to check them out.Homes of Hope, you know, they also take donations as well. All right, as we close this out, let's end on some hope, you know, some more hope.What is some encouragement that you can often offer to, you know, people listening on their journey? If you could sum up the biggest thing God has taught you through your journey so far, what would it be?

That struggle is a part of the journey. That there are going to be times of struggle, man. It said. Jesus said. It said.He said, in this world there will be trials and tribulations, but take heart, take courage. For I have overcome the world and my hope lies in that. And, you know, I know that every day there's going to be something wrong.There's going to be something that's going to set me off or going to try to get me left. There's this spiritual warfare going on all around us. There's people who, who hate us. There's people who don't want to see us succeed.But that doesn't mean anything because my hope lies in Jesus and not in this world or what anybody may think about me. God has taught me through this pro. This process, man, just to be. In order to lead that you have to follow.And following Christ is the most important thing to me.And I believe that when you start to follow people, you're leading people in that direction because people see that change in you just to live it out, not just talk about it. You can say all you want. Say, I'm. I'm a believer in Jesus Christ. I believe in this, and I have faith in this.But if your actions and the way you live your life doesn't show that, how can you prove that you actually believe in it?

Awesome. All right, Jeremy, Well, I appreciate you joining us today. I appreciate your willingness to be vulnerable and share some of your journey.

Yeah.

And you know, there may be someone who's listening that I, that can identify with things that you have walked through. And I pray it can be a help to, to them as well. That's the whole purpose of this podcast. All right, jj, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me. Sure.

We'll see a lot more or hear a lot more from you. Thanks for tuning in. Be sure be sure to subscribe to the podcast, share it with others. The Prodigal Journey. We're available on all major platforms.All right. If you'd like to reach out, Ben, at the prodigal journey.com tune next time to the Prodigal Journey.